Crist: The great distaffers..

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think you would agree that Personal Ensign has been linked more to Zenyatta than Lady's Secret from what I have heard on the internet and read on forums, so my smile shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

It's also worth noting that her win in the Beldame at age 3 came just 8 days after her prior stakes win in the Rare Perfume.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by CSC

Maybe it was a ploy to draw you into a discussion, you know how many times Personal Ensign shipped across the coast. Apparently 1 less time than Zenyatta will when she ships to CD later this fall.

We will cross that bridge when we get to it. Shirreffs might ship to CD and scratch again because of the weather. What was Shug thinking running his undefeated mare in the slop against the Derby and Oaks winners? That is no way to treat a great mare.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. .

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

[Indian Charlie]

I'd take a 3yo Lakeway prior to her near death experience against many of these.

4yo Sharp Cat, and possibly Akinemod, who I believe still has one of the 3 or 4 fastest two turn BSFs ever earned by a filly/mare, in what was her first start around 2 turns.

[brockguy]

Just to add to Goldikova's impressive credentials that 6 of her 9 G1 triumphs are against males!

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

Great post. Too bad Zenyattards are incapable of understanding it, but oh well.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's also worth noting that her win in the Beldame at age 3 came just 8 days after her prior stakes win in the Rare Perfume.

Thanks. Didn't realize that.

That's pretty astounding, even back then, all things considered.

What are the odds Team Zenyatta takes a bold step and goes for the Pacific Classic, 21 days after the Clement Hirsch?

[XIIPointStables]

I would love to browse the PPs of the horses in Steve's blog.

Can someone lend me $190 so I can do so?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Thanks. Didn't realize that.

That's pretty astounding, even back then, all things considered.

What are the odds Team Zenyatta takes a bold step and goes for the Pacific Classic, 21 days after the Clement Hirsch?

Since Z has an allergy to the paint used in starting gates, she can't go into starting gates more than once every 26 days.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.

Because Klein let Lukas do anything he wanted, its not even the same situation. Yes Lukas ran his horses more aggressively than any other trainer in history. Why not make an apples to apples comparison. I think the Phipps is as you so eloquently stated, the only time they ship west of the Miss. is when there is a Breeders Cup, maybe an odd grass race.

[slotdirt]

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

Just to be clear, for clarity sakes

I am not criticizing her schedule, she ran in new york and then the BC, makes sense to me if I owned her.

[slotdirt]

The thing is, there were no synthetics back then, so there wasn't the need to go east/west vice/versa to prove one's mettle. I can understand folks wanting Personal Ensign to run in the West, but when the horse was undefeated, beat males in the Whitney, and had taken on all comers in her division on dirt, I guess I just don't get the comparison to Zenyatta's schedule.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The thing is, there were no synthetics back then, so there wasn't the need to go east/west vice/versa to prove one's mettle. I can understand folks wanting Personal Ensign to run in the West, but when the horse was undefeated, beat males in the Whitney, and had taken on all comers in her division on dirt, I guess I just don't get the comparison to Zenyatta's schedule.

You don't get the comparison because you aren't trying to grasp at straws in order to defend a hopeless position.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The thing is, there were no synthetics back then, so there wasn't the need to go east/west vice/versa to prove one's mettle. I can understand folks wanting Personal Ensign to run in the West, but when the horse was undefeated, beat males in the Whitney, and had taken on all comers in her division on dirt, I guess I just don't get the comparison to Zenyatta's schedule.

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Thanks. Didn't realize that.

That's pretty astounding, even back then, all things considered.

What are the odds Team Zenyatta takes a bold step and goes for the Pacific Classic, 21 days after the Clement Hirsch?

21 days is the new 40 days in modern training. Just look at Quality Road's spacing.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

The Gary Jones filly By Land By Sea was the early season star in CA. She won stakes at Santa Anita, Gulfstream (the Rampart), Churchill, Oaklawn (the Apple Blossom), and Hollywood (the Milady). Something must have happened to her though because I don't think she ran the last half of the year.

The CA distaff division at the time had a lot of horses flip-flopping between the main track and turf course, so it wasn't particularly strong.

As a barometer Clabber Girl ran on both coasts that year, winning what is now the Clement Hirsch, and lost to Personal Ensign a couple of times during the year.

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Just to add to Goldikova's impressive credentials that 6 of her 9 G1 triumphs are against males!

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time.