A truly bad day for N.J.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think it's a great way to say it. The off-track/on-track split is so far from equitable it's a joke, and a major drain on the industry. ADW's are nothing more than used-car dealers yet get paid as producers.

None of it really makes sense to me. Its like Frank Stronach made the manual for ADW operations.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think it's a great way to say it. The off-track/on-track split is so far from equitable it's a joke, and a major drain on the industry. ADW's are nothing more than used-car dealers yet get paid as producers.

It's, at best, a poor oversimplification....and at worst a gross misrepresentation.

The tracks set these rates.

What's funny is that when there are impasses when tracks fight for higher fees, message boards get filled with people screaming about the piggish nature of racetracks, yet here they are apparently being " ripped off. " Both arguments can't be true.

It's a complicated discussion.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If you want to quote Bob Kulina a link would be the best way to do him justice.

As for splitting it down the middle....that's an inaccurate representation.

Give me a reasonable split if you think that's inaccurate and a rationale for your percentages. The delta of 1% in off track wagering fees is approx. $1.5MM to date so getting this figure right obviously is of utmost importance.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

You know as well as I do this is information that isn't published and generally well protected- a link would not be available. I spoke to him on the phone in reference to a potential business my partners have been pursuing. Is that unacceptable data? Or do you think he was flat out lying to me?

Give me a reasonable split if you think that's inaccurate and a rationale for your percentages. The delta of 1% in off track wagering fees is approx. $1.5MM to date so getting this figure right obviously is of utmost importance.

Does he know you are quoting your conversation on a public message board?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Does he know you are quoting your conversation on a public message board?

NO, and I didn't want to reveal my information source because it's sensitive information, but you CALLED ME A LIAR.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's, at best, a poor oversimplification....and at worst a gross misrepresentation.

The tracks set these rates.

What's funny is that when there are impasses when tracks fight for higher fees, message boards get filled with people screaming about the piggish nature of racetracks, yet here they are apparently being " ripped off. " Both arguments can't be true.

It's a complicated discussion.

Of course, whatever I say these days is an "oversimplification" and a "misrepresentation".

MY OPINION IS the tracks are getting ripped off. ADW's and OTB's provide very little and get paid too much for it.

I'm done with this thread.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's, at best, a poor oversimplification....and at worst a gross misrepresentation.

The tracks set these rates.

What's funny is that when there are impasses when tracks fight for higher fees, message boards get filled with people screaming about the piggish nature of racetracks, yet here they are apparently being " ripped off. " Both arguments can't be true.

It's a complicated discussion.

I have never once screamed about the piggish nature of the tracks. I'm always on the side of the horsemen / organization that puts on the racing product.

I've always thought the tracks get the raw end of the deal. Obviously, they negotiate the deals, but what are they going to do? Not sell the signal & go out of business?

sorry for the poor oversimplification, or gross misrepresentation

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I have never once screamed about the piggish nature of the tracks. I'm always on the side of the horsemen / organization that puts on the racing product.

I've always thought the tracks get the raw end of the deal. Obviously, they negotiate the deals, but what are they going to do? Not sell the signal & go out of business?

sorry for the poor oversimplification, or gross misrepresentation

The irony is that everytime an entity like NYRA or Tracknet tries to get more money for its signal, among the first people to balk and pull the signal are the members of the Mid-Atlantic Cooperative, which includes the NJSEA tracks.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I have never once screamed about the piggish nature of the tracks. I'm always on the side of the horsemen / organization that puts on the racing product.

I've always thought the tracks get the raw end of the deal. Obviously, they negotiate the deals, but what are they going to do? Not sell the signal & go out of business?

sorry for the poor oversimplification, or gross misrepresentation

Geez....stop.

Whatever I say gets taken as some personal insult. Guess what.....it isn't. It's an attempt at a discussion.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Geez....stop.

Whatever I say gets taken as some personal insult. Guess what.....it isn't. It's an attempt at a discussion.

hey it didnt bother me. The internet is the internet, I take it for what it is and thank DT for making my work hours go by faster.

I just know that those two phrases were the farthest from my mind when I used the term "ripped off".

Do you believe tracks get fairly compensated for their signal?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Geez....stop.

Whatever I say gets taken as some personal insult. Guess what.....it isn't. It's an attempt at a discussion.

On another note we will be looking for your 2010 version of Meese Rocks in the coming weeks... Good Luck this meet.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

hey it didnt bother me. The internet is the internet, I take it for what it is and thank DT for making my work hours go by faster.

I just know that those two phrases were the farthest from my mind when I used the term "ripped off".

Do you believe tracks get fairly compensated for their signal?

I never even imagined you were trying to say something either unfair or incorrect ( just as, even though he felt a need to make it up, I never called Phil anything close to a " liar " ). I was actually responding more to Phil's response to me ( he likes to take the opposing side to my posts....it's an endearing quality of his ).

The signal fee discussion is a very long, interesting, and complicated one...that frankly I don't have nearly the time for ( at least right now ). Perhaps we can have it over a drink or ten some time this summer. Obviously racetracks started off selling their signals at seemingly very low rates. However, there are a lot of factors to take into consideration in the discussions. Track to track rates face different variables than Track to ADW relationships.

I just hate simple terms like " ripped off " for these very complex discussions. It's probably just another of my annoying qualities.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I never even imagined you were trying to say something either unfair or incorrect ( just as, even though he felt a need to make it up, I never called Phil anything close to a " liar " ). I was actually responding more to Phil's response to me ( he likes to take the opposing side to my posts....it's an endearing quality of his ).

The signal fee discussion is a very long, interesting, and complicated one...that frankly I don't have nearly the time for ( at least right now ). Perhaps we can have it over a drink or ten some time this summer. Obviously racetracks started off selling their signals at seemingly very low rates. However, there are a lot of factors to take into consideration in the discussions. Track to track rates face different variables than Track to ADW relationships.

I just hate simple terms like " ripped off " for these very complex discussions. It's probably just another of my annoying qualities.

Race track operators seem to have a unique habit of putting themselves in situations to get bent over in the future. One of the best parts of the RTIP is the Joe Hirsch Speaker Series, where you get to hear from & talk to guys like Charles Champion, to Race Track simulcast directors & hear different sides of the situations. I found myself many times thinking, "no, really?" when it comes to this issue, & others similar. Especially when you are looking at it from a 2001-2005 perspective & not a 1970's perspective. But one of racings best qualities is its ability to evolve (though I do understand the difficulties in evolving)

You're going to have to have 10 extra for me, since I will be enjoying Saratoga from the confines of my cubby in Slowcala, FL. I know I will be breaking many of hearts, not being able to run wild for at least a long weekend in the greatest summer vacation spot on earth. 13 straight years..

[richard burch]

Does what the fatso Governor said yesterday automatically become law or do they have to vote on it? Can the democrats stop this?

Is there a chance this may not go through until some other alternative ideas are presented?

If this does pass, does racing stop after the current meets end?




Where are you R. Codey? Now is your chance to be a hero!

[GoIrish]

It was merely a report, submitted at the behest of the governor, which contains recommendations on a number of topics, horse racing being one. Many recommendations in the report would require legislation and much political crapola. One fact is this is the last year of the casino subsidy, so something will have to happen for the purse structure next year. I don't think the state can just shut the doors, since the number of racing dates per year in NJ is mandated by law. Special legislation had to be passed for this meet to cut the dates.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by GoIrish

It was merely a report, submitted at the behest of the governor, which contains recommendations on a number of topics, horse racing being one. Many recommendations in the report would require legislation and much political crapola. One fact is this is the last year of the casino subsidy, so something will have to happen for the purse structure next year. I don't think the state can just shut the doors, since the number of racing dates per year in NJ is mandated by law. Special legislation had to be passed for this meet to cut the dates.

so there could be a ray of hope. at least for a delay.

i just fired off a letter to my legislators because i'm not going down without a fight!

for anyone in n. j. who cares, find your legislator and let them know how you feel.

they can be found at:

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/distric...cipalities.asp

[richard burch]

N.J. horse industry feels betrayed by Gov. Christie's support of Atlantic City, but not Meadowlands

"The whole industry in New Jersey will be gone, including Perretti Farms," said Anthony Perretti, general manager of Perretti Farms in Cream Ridge, the state’s largest breeding farm. "The governor and his team are willing to support Atlantic City, but not the Meadowlands? Give us support, so we can reinvent as well."

Horses are big business in New Jersey. According to a Rutgers University report from 2007, horse racing and racing-related operations generate more than $780 million in economic activity each year. Some 3,800 of the industry’s 13,000 jobs are tied to racetracks. Horse farms represent one-fifth of the state’s 790,000 agricultural acres, and house upwards of 12,500 standardbreds and thoroughbreds.New Jersey is a national leader, too. In 2007, the state was second only to Kentucky for horse sales as a percentage of agricultural sales, said Paul Gottlieb, associate professor at Rutgers University. And it ranked second, after Rhode Island, for total breeding per acre of land, he said.

"We are one of the top equine states in the country," said Gottlieb, who noted potential race track closings will have far-reaching implications. "The impact is likely to be felt by agricultural suppliers, including hay growers who do not keep horses themselves, veterinarians, trainers, farriers, and so on."

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...s_gov_chr.html

[richard burch]

Mr. Burch,

Many thanks for your email.

As you may be aware, all Assembly Members and Senators representing
Bergen County in the Legislature met the afternoon of the release of the
Commission's report earlier this week. We agreed unanimously that
support of the report's conclusions, especially as they addressed the
issue of the Meadowlands, would severely undermine efforts to revitalize
northern New Jersey, increase employment and negatively affect our
common efforts to make the Meadowlands a true economic engine for the
state, and particularly North Jersey.

I greatly appreciate your support and kind words. Please know that I
join you in your concern and will speak vociferously on the subject in
support of the 36th District and the entire state of New Jersey.

I look forward to speaking with you in the future, and appreciate your
time in writing.

Gary Schaer, Assemblyman
36th Legislative District

[philcski]

Originally Posted by richard burch

Mr. Burch,

Many thanks for your email.

As you may be aware, all Assembly Members and Senators representing
Bergen County in the Legislature met the afternoon of the release of the
Commission's report earlier this week. We agreed unanimously that
support of the report's conclusions, especially as they addressed the
issue of the Meadowlands, would severely undermine efforts to revitalize
northern New Jersey, increase employment and negatively affect our
common efforts to make the Meadowlands a true economic engine for the
state, and particularly North Jersey.

I greatly appreciate your support and kind words. Please know that I
join you in your concern and will speak vociferously on the subject in
support of the 36th District and the entire state of New Jersey.

I look forward to speaking with you in the future, and appreciate your
time in writing.

Gary Schaer, Assemblyman
36th Legislative District

Good job man- my hats off to you for fighting the fight, even if it's just a small voice in the big picture, it matters.

[richard burch]

Commission to N.J. racing: Drop Dead

When New Jersey Governor Chris Christie put together something called the New Jersey Gaming, Sports and Entertainment Advisory Commission and asked it to come up with solutions for the many thorny issues facing the state's gambling interests, the horse racing industry knew it might be in for a hard time. Not only were the Meadowlands and Monmouth, both state-owned tracks, losing money the state couldn't afford to lose, but also the deck figured to be stacked in favor of the powerful Atlantic City casino interests. In New Jersey, it always is.

But no one could have expected what was to come out of the commission, a report that figures to have devastating consequences for New Jersey racing, particularly the harness industry. The commission didn't come up with one thing to help horse racing or even a hint of a solution. Rather, it says the way to fix things is to kill the game.

And Christie is on board: "This report is a blueprint that will guide our efforts in managing and protecting our gaming, sports and entertainment resources more responsibly and reforming issues critical to New Jersey's economic future," he said in a statement.

The easiest way to fix racing in New Jersey would be to jump on the slots machine bandwagon and bring them to the Meadowlands, where a casino in one of the most densely populated areas in the country would no doubt be wildly successful. The Atlantic City lobby has always been against that, so few racing people expected the commission or Christie to deliver slots. But most thought they would come up with something to help racing, which not only has a long history in New Jersey but is vital to the state's economy because it provides thousands of jobs and preserves green space, something there isn't nearly enough of in the "Garden State."

But there wasn't even a crumb. The commission basically told the harness industry it is on its own. It can either lease the Meadowlands for $1 or let the place close. It also came up with other proposals, like holding a harness meet at Monmouth or creating a small track at one of the state's training centers. Whatever direction the harness industry goes, the end result will either be no racing or minor league racing that bears no resemblance to the quality product that has made the Meadowlands the center of the harness racing universe.

Apparently, Christie hates Monmouth Park less than he hates harness racing. His minions on the commissions weren't quite so harsh on Monmouth and didn't call for it to shut down. Then again, thoroughbred racing in New Jersey also has plenty of problems. The commission said the days of the casinos helping fund the purses through a subsidy are over. Once that subsidy is gone, Monmouth can't possibly maintain the purse structure that has made the 2010 meet a smashing success. Its future? Who knows?

Perhaps horse racing has no right to expect a handout from the state or anyone else, especially in these difficult economic times. The game indeed needs to find ways to get back on its feet and be self-sufficient.

But the industry does have a right to be treated fairly. What is so galling about the report is that it plays up to the casino guys and makes it clear that the state will roll over and do everything it can to make Atlantic City thrive again. The state is willing to go so far to help Atlantic City that it is exploring taking over the area where the casinos are located. If all this means killing horse racing in the process, too bad.

Like New Jersey racing, the Atlantic City casinos are in trouble and need help. Casinos and racinos in Pennsylvania, Delaware and New York that have come on the scene in recent years surround Atlantic City. People choose convenience when deciding where to gamble, and that's what's killing A.C. The most obvious solution is to join forces with racing and open a casino at the Meadowlands. There'd be more than enough money to go around to satisfy everyone and to revive both the racing and casino industries in the state. Even the state, which is supposedly so desperate for money, can benefit by taking its slice of what would be a big, fat slots pie out at the Meadowlands.

But Atlantic City doesn't want that. Their game plan is obvious: they want to kill horse racing in New Jersey and when that is accomplished they can move into the North Jersey market and not have to share their profits with racing. It's called greed.

It's Christie's job to stop that from happening, to look out for Atlantic City and horse racing. One shouldn't matter more than the other. But he's obviously not going to do that, and neither are the vast majority of politicians in the southern half of the state who have spent their careers doing whatever Atlantic City tells them to do.

This is politics at its worst and when politics stinks this badly money is involved. One can only imagine how much cash the Atlantic City casino lobby has thrown around to make so many politicians their lap dogs.

There's a lot of garbage coming out of Christie's office. A portion of his press release on the commission's report carries the headline "Creation of a Sustainable Industry Structure to Preserve Live Horse Racing." Don't believe a word of it. This is all about taking care of Atlantic City, and nothing else.

Shame on you, Chris Christie.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/hor...ill&id=5402529

[richard burch]

The Future of Racing in New Jersey Will Impact Sport Horses


The bombshell revelation last week that horse racing has a questionable future in New Jersey also delivered a blow to the sport horse segment of the state's equine industry.
"It's devastating," said Karyn Malinowski, director of the Rutgers Equine Science Center, summing up her response to the Hanson Report. The document outlined several alternatives, including the end of live racing at the Meadowlands, but in Malinowski's view did not take into account racing's value to the state's agribusiness.

"Horse racing is the economic driving engine of the entire horse industry in New Jersey," which has a $780 million value annually, Malinowski noted.
Racing interests contend permitting slot machines to operate at the state's tracks, as they do successfully at tracks in neighboring states, is the answer to New Jersey racing's financial woes _ but no such proposal appears in the Hanson Report and pressure from Atlantic City casinos has prevented that solution. With "racinos" already in action across state lines in close proximity to Atlantic City, those in the horse industry are mystified at why slots can't be used to save the Meadowlands, which is known worldwide for its standardbred racing.

Though a decision about how to proceed on racing has yet to be made by the state, which is seeking to end subsidies for the sport, the worst-case scenario is chilling to many whose livelihood or recreation revolves around horses.
Visions of empty farmland, some of it ripe for development; thousands of horses departing for neighboring states and a consequent wave of unemployment are haunting.
"It's an absolute disaster for me," said Pete Bousum, a veterinarian who is president of the Mid-Atlantic Equine Medical Center in Ringoes, where the size of the clinic was just doubled.
Standardbreds (harness racing), thoroughbreds (flat racing) and breeding are 60 percent of the facility's business, he said.
"I don't know what to expect. It's hard to believe it will really go away," he commented, contending slots are "a very simple remedy for the Meadowlands."

Jerseyans involved in showing, pleasure riding, polo and other equestrian activities have the luxury of enjoying top veterinary clinics and farriers, tack shops, feed stores and additional amenities all within a short distance from their stables _ while horse owners in many other states have to drive long distances for such services.
"If the veterinarians and farriers lose half of their customer base, they'll have to go somewhere else to find new clients, which would put our horses at risk for not having the same care. It could drive a lot of the quality services we have in this state out of here," said Tierney Sullivan, who owns Coach Stop Saddlery in Bedminster, which primarily serves those involved with hunters, jumpers, eventers, dressage, and pleasure riding.

"The horse is the state animal. Hello, we need to keep them here and not send them elsewhere."
Liz Durkin, an attorney and hunter/jumper rider who has a 100-acre preserved farm in Warren County where she keeps her horses, agrees that the non-racing segment will be affected if racing diminishes or disappears.
She believes it will survive, but ``it will be a struggle,'' said Durkin.
"I don't think anyone understands the impact yet," she noted, pointing out the state actually would lose revenue on many fronts if there is an equine exodus.
Durkin is on the advisory board for the Equine Science Center, where research and services valuable to horse owners in every breed and discipline throughout New Jersey and across the country already are suffering cutbacks. Funding is necessary to solve such problems as laminitis, the condition that ended Kentucky Derby winner Barbaro's life.

Jane Gilbert, a past president of the New Jersey Horse Council, is president of ReRun, which places former thoroughbred race horse in new homes. If racing stables move out of state, not all the horses will go with them, she fears, and ReRun already has a tough time placing a surplus of unwanted former runners.

"Today we have a waiting list of 10," Gilbert said Friday, noting all the organization's facilities are full. "I'm sure by tomorrow it will be 12 or 13." ReRun and the Standardbred Retirement Foundation are hoping for money from the state, but what will happen with that is also uncertain.

A percentage of the wagering handle supports the state's Equine Advisory Board, which gives out awards to sport horse breeders and also helps finance therapeutic riding and 4-H programs for youth.
"The whole industry is interconnected,'' said Rick Wills, who owns Rick's Saddle Shop in Cream Ridge and Englishtown, where he also has a feed store, as well as a tack shop in Pennsylvania.
In terms of what could happen to racing, Wills said, "you're really just giving away an industry to all of the neighboring states that are really happy to get it."
If racing departs, Wills cited several examples of economic loss. He'll sell less of the products he stocks, some of which are made in New Jersey. He'd likely need fewer employees, and Wills even pointed out that he'd spend less on advertising in New Jersey.

"I wish the Governor would come to my Cream Ridge store one day and listen to the folks that have horses and (learn about) the quality of life that it adds to New Jersey; the farmland that is preserved because of horses and horse racing," said Wills.
He is serious about the offer and said he would organize an informational session for anyone who would like to come and learn "what horses mean to New Jersey."