3/26 (TP): Spiral, Bourbonette (G3's); Rushaway, Hansel, Queen

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Because I have different opinions than you that makes me "high and mighty"....no, that just means I have a different opinion. It really easy to attack someone personally because they have different beliefs than you but it's really meaningless to do so. Regarding my betting....I do that at the track or OTW not on an internet board!

You know whats meaningless? Preaching to people on a message board that don't care about what you have to say. Acting high and mighty around a bunch of people that don't care is meaningless. Discussing why outdated pedigree stuff that has nothing to do with betting, while ignoring important aspects like surface is meaningful.

Like I said, stick to American Idol.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Firstly, it's dubious to say that the "foreign" element in Animal Kingdom's pedigree is not a factor. While a few Euros might be included, I doubt that as much focus is paid to the happenings on racetracks there than in the States, especially where it concerns assigning Chef-De-Race status.

Acatenango is probably the most successful German sire in history. Plenty of his offspring have performed at the elite international level as well.

Secondly, a lot of CDR assignments are made retrospectively and of dubious merit. It's easy to make all the Derby winners from 1950 onwards have a certain number of profile points (I like how the CD and DI are no longer the gold standard for Derby winners by the way) when you don't actually start assigning CDR status until 1980. A lot of CDRs probably achieved their "status" on the basis of those very same Derby winners. Therefore, horses sired by relatively young sires (such as Leroidesanimaux) are automatically biased against.

Recently, they made the hardly influential sire Lost Code, a CDR. He had a run there in the last few years as the broodmare sire of a few decent sprinters (the best being Fabulous Strike) and for some reason became a CDR. As though they were trying to force Lost Code into being an important sire, they also made his own sire, Codex, a CDR, too. How convenient. Codex sired just 3 crops and died over 25 years ago. Now all of a sudden his descendants are inheriting superior genes?

Based on this laughable maneuvering, I would predict that Animal Kingdom's profile will be soon be bolstered in the near future. Soon, streaking stallion Candy Ride will be a CDR and probably his own sire Candy Stripes along with him. Candy Stripes is also the sire of Leroidesanimaux. So Animal Kingdom has a "sneaky good" profile. Just like Real Quiet and Strike The Gold...

Again, from the same site, an alphabetical listing of all current CDR's. I think you'll agree that there is not evidence of it being weighted toward American racing:Abernant (B) Dark Ronald (P) MILL REEF (C/S) ROYAL ACADEMY (B/I)
Ack Ack (I/C) Discovery (S) Mossborough (C) Royal Charger (B)
Admiral Drake (P) Djebel (I) Mr. Prospector (B/C) Run the Gantlet (P)
Alcantara II (P) Donatello II (P) My Babu (B) Sadler's Wells (C/S)
Alibhai (C) Double Jay (B) Nashua (I/C) Sardanapale (P)
Alizier (P) Dr. Fager (I) Nasrullah (B) Sea-Bird (S)
Alycidon (P) Eight Thirty (I) Native Dancer (I/C) Seattle Slew (B/C)
Alydar (C) Ela-Mana-Mou (P) Navarro (C) Secretariat (I/C)
A.P. INDY (I/C) Equipoise (I/C) Nearco (B/C) Sharpen Up (B/C)
Apalachee (B) Exclusive Native (C) Never Bend (B/I) Shirley Heights (C/P)
Asterus (S) Fair Play (S/P) Never Say Die (C) Sicambre (C)
Aureole (C) Fair Trial (B) Nijinsky II (C/S) Sideral (C)
Bachelor's Double (S) Fairway (B) Niniski (C/P) Sir Cosmo (B)
Bahram (C) Fappiano (I/C) NoDOUBLE (C/P) Sir Gallahad III (C)
Baldski (B/I) Forli (C) Noholme II (B/C) Sir Gaylord (I/C)
Ballymoss (S) Foxbridge (P) Northern Dancer (B/C) Sir Ivor (I/C)
Bayardo (P) Full Sail (I) Nureyev (C) SMART STRIKE (I/C)
Ben Brush (I) Gainsborough (C) Oleander (S) Solario (P)
Best Turn (C) Gallant Man (B/I) Olympia (B) Son-In-Law (P)
Big Game (I) GIANT'S CAUSEWAY (C) Orby (B) Speak John (B/I)
Black Toney (B/I) Graustark (C/S) Ortello (P) Spearmint (P)
Blandford (C) Grey Dawn II (B/I) Panorama (B) Spy Song (B)
Blenheim II (C/S) Grey Sovereign (B) Persian Gulf (C) Stage Door Johnny (S/P)
Blue Larkspur (C) Gundomar (C) Peter Pan (B) Star Kingdom (I/C)
Blushing Groom (B/C) Habitat (B) Petition (I) Star Shoot (I)
Bois Roussel (S) Hail To Reason (C) Phalaris (B) Sunny Boy (P)
Bold Bidder (I/C) Halo (B/C) Pharis II (B) Sunstar (S)
Bold RuCKUS (I/C) Havresac II (I) Pharos (I) Sweep (I)
Bold Ruler (B/I) Heliopolis (B) Pia Star (S) Swynford (C)
Brantome (C) Herbager (C/S) Pilate (C) T.V. Lark (I)
British Empire (B) High Top (C) PLEASANT COLONY (i) Tantieme (S)
Broad Brush (I/C) His Majesty (C) Polynesian (I) Teddy (S)
Broomstick (I) Hoist The Flag (B/I) Pompey (B) The Tetrarch (I)
Bruleur (P) Hurry On (P) Precipitation (P) Ticino (C/S)
BuckAROO (B/i) Hyperion (B/C) Pretense (C) Tom Fool (I/C)
Buckpasser (C) Icecapade (B/C) Prince Bio (C) Tom Rolfe (C/P)
Bull Dog (B) Indian Ridge (I) Prince Chevalier (C) Tourbillon (C/P)
Bull Lea (C) In Reality (B/C) Prince John (C) Tracery (C)
Busted (S) Intentionally (B/I) Princequillo (I/S) Traghetto (I)
Caro (I/C) In the Wings (C/S) Prince Rose (C) Tudor Minstrel (B)
CARSON CITY (b/i) Key to the Mint (B/C) Promised Land (C) Turn-to (B/I)
Chateau Bouscaut (P) Khaled (I) Rabelais (P) Ultimus (B)
Chaucer (S) King Salmon (I) RaINBOW QUEST (c/S) unbridled (B/I)
CHIEF'S CROWN (I/S) KingMAMBO (C/S) Raise A Native (B) Vaguely Noble (C/P)
Cicero (B) King's Bishop (B/I) Reliance II (S/P) Vandale (P)
Clarissimus (C) La Farina (P) Relko (S) Vatellor (P)
CoDEX (I/C) Le Fabuleux (P) Reviewer (B/C) Vatout (S)
Colorado (I) LOST CODE (B/I) Ribot (C/P) Vieux Manoir (C)
Congreve (I) Luthier (C) Right Royal (S) War Admiral (C)
Count Fleet (C) Lyphard (C) Riverman (I/C) What A Pleasure (B)
Court Martial (B) Mahmoud (I/C) Roberto (C) Wild Risk (P)
Creme dela Creme (C/S) Man O' War (S) Rock Sand (C/S) Worden (S)
Crepello (P) Massine (P) Roman (B/I)
Damascus (I/C) Midstream (C) Rough'n Tumble (B/C)
Danzig (I/C) Mieuxce (P) Round Table (S)

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Candy Ride was sired by Ride the Rails.

Oops. At least I save face as Candy Stripes is the broodmare sire.

It's possible instead of Candy Stripes, Cryptoclearance will be made a CDR when Candy Ride is.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Again, from the same site, an alphabetical listing of all current CDR's. I think you'll agree that there is not evidence of it being weighted toward American racing:

Actually, I don't agree. Most of those older Euro sires got on there because they can be found in the pedigrees of 20th century Kentucky Derby winners.

Look at recently named CDRs and all you'll see is a few curious choices like In The Wings and Niniski.

In The Wings, never an important sire, got one good horse and that was Singspiel, also an indifferent sire. However, In The Wings was made a CDR because he was allegedly Sadler's Wells "best sire son". I presume they just wanted to bolster Sadler's Wells's resume for CDR status as he was belatedly placed on the list.

Of course, anyone who even remotely follows international racing knows that Sadler's Wells most important sons have proven to be Galileo and Montjeu, who combined, practically account for 75% of the Classic starters in Europe (and that's barely an exaggeration). And yet neither horse is a CDR yet. Would you really downgrade a horse by either of those 2 stallions simply because they are not CDRs? I would hope not. German stallion Acatenango (along with fellow Germans Lomitas and Monsun) is pretty much in the same boat.

Going back to the topside of Animal Kingdom's pedigree, we have illustrated another short coming of "dosage", namely the female influence. Leroidesanimaux is, as someone mentioned, closely related to the great broodmare Hasili, whose offspring have won important stakes ranging from 6.5f to 12f.

And yet his pedigree is weak.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Actually, I don't agree. Most of those older Euro sires got on there because they can be found in the pedigrees of 20th century Kentucky Derby winners.

Look at recently named CDRs and all you'll see is a few curious choices like In The Wings and Niniski.

In The Wings, never an important sire, got one good horse and that was Singspiel, also an indifferent sire. However, In The Wings was made a CDR because he was allegedly Sadler's Wells "best sire son". I presume they just wanted to bolster Sadler's Wells's resume for CDR status as he was belatedly placed on the list.

Of course, anyone who even remotely follows international racing knows that Sadler's Wells most important sons have proven to be Galileo and Montjeu, who combined, practically account for 75% of the Classic starters in Europe (and that's barely an exaggeration). And yet neither horse is a CDR yet. Would you really downgrade a horse by either of those 2 stallions simply because they are not CDRs? I would hope not. German stallion Acatenango (along with fellow Germans Lomitas and Monsun) is pretty much in the same boat.

Going back to the topside of Animal Kingdom's pedigree, we have illustrated another short coming of "dosage", namely the female influence. Leroidesanimaux is, as someone mentioned, closely related to the great broodmare Hasili, whose offspring have won important stakes ranging from 6.5f to 12f.

And yet his pedigree is weak.

Another factor I try to employ in handicapping two year old races and grade ones is the work done by the Parkers in designating "Reines-de-Course". Lesser known than Chefs, this is a list of the most influential broodmares in history and is likewise cumbersome but worthwhile when looking at breeding imo. They currently have about 800 mares so designated. Rather than post the list here I'll refer you to their website if interested. http://www.reines-de-course.com/ Hasili is on their list by the way but I must ask, how is she closely related to Leroidesanimaux?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Rather than post the list here I'll refer you to their website if interested. http://www.reines-de-course.com/ Hasili is on their list by the way but I must ask, how is she closely related to Leroidesanimaux?

Leroidesanimaux's dam is a half sister to Hasili. Both are out of Kerali, who is a "broodmare of broodmare" of sorts, having produced 5 different daughters that produced Grade 1 or 2-calibur horses.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Leroidesanimaux's dam is a half sister to Hasili. Both are out of Kerali, who is a "broodmare of broodmare" of sorts, having produced 5 different daughters that produced Grade 1 or 2-calibur horses.

Ok, I see that, thanks.