Wait On That Abortion

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i said people still want to make it #1-of course that's some people-not everyone. there are voters who vote strictly on who is 'pro life'. i think that's a misnomer, who the hell is pro death?

Exactly. I don't know anyone who is in favor of abortions as birth control! Beyond absurd.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

Exactly. I don't know anyone who is in favor of abortions as birth control! Beyond absurd.

Interesting! I've known several young women who used abortion as exactly that. One of my best friends when I returned to school in 1971 after my tour of duty in the army had at least 4 abortions, her mindset being it was her preferred method of birth control. Over the years I have known several more women who have had multiple abortions...all would say it was "birth control".

[somerfrost]

It's been 38 years since "Roe" (1973), for many women, abortion has been legal their entire lives. In my previous post, I mentioned that I have known women who consider abortion nothing more than a birth control method...I think anyone who doubts that this is a feeling shared by more than a few is naive. You can oppose or back abortion but don't try and "sanitize" that by promoting misconceptions.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, Dr K, the various serial killers among us (I don't recall how many the FBI says are around), the Hemlock Society and other such groups, and supporters of Capital Punishment (ironically including many folks who are "pro-life")

i was referring to those who use the pro life moniker as a way to exalt themselves. people who are pro choice aren't pro death, they're generally people who think that people have to figure things out for themselves.
i've read that religion is a way to mind other peoples business, i think the abortion argument is a perfect example of that.


also, just because you, somer, know of a couple of women who used abortion as a bc method doesn't necessarily prove anything on a wider scale.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Interesting! I've known several young women who used abortion as exactly that. One of my best friends when I returned to school in 1971 after my tour of duty in the army had at least 4 abortions, her mindset being it was her preferred method of birth control. Over the years I have known several more women who have had multiple abortions...all would say it was "birth control".

That's remarkably stupid of them, don't you agree?

But your personal recollections hardly proves anything for the big picture now, especially when considering the availability of various birth control methods to women 40-50 years ago, in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

I still see little evidence that most people are in favor of killing fetuses as a method of birth control.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i was referring to those who use the pro life moniker as a way to exalt themselves. people who are pro choice aren't pro death, they're generally people who think that people have to figure things out for themselves.
i've read that religion is a way to mind other peoples business, i think the abortion argument is a perfect example of that.


also, just because you, somer, know of a couple of women who used abortion as a bc method doesn't necessarily prove anything on a wider scale.

In 2008 (last year stats were available), there were 1,262,350 recorded abortions...approximately half of these involved women who had at least one prior abortion. 11% of all women having an abortion did not use alternative methods of birth control....there is your "wider scale"

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

That's remarkably stupid of them, don't you agree?

But your personal recollections hardly proves anything for the big picture now, especially when considering the availability of various birth control methods to women 40-50 years ago, in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

I still see little evidence that most people are in favor of killing fetuses as a method of birth control.

Don't misquote me, I said "more than a few" not "most"
Big difference!
Note my response to Danzig

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

In 2008 (last year stats were available), there were 1,262,350 recorded abortions...approximately half of these involved women who had at least one prior abortion. 11% of all women having an abortion did not use alternative methods of birth control....there is your "wider scale"

11%. not a huge percentage, is it?

i was talking to a co-worker the other day, said i was glad i was born in an age of birth control. women like to have control over their lives, pregnancy being a big part of that. i like that my children are grown, that i can have a good relationship with my husband without having to worry about children. like i read the other day, i wouldn't take a million dollars for one of my children; but i wouldn't give you a nickel for another one!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

11%. not a huge percentage, is it?

i was talking to a co-worker the other day, said i was glad i was born in an age of birth control. women like to have control over their lives, pregnancy being a big part of that. i like that my children are grown, that i can have a good relationship with my husband without having to worry about children. like i read the other day, i wouldn't take a million dollars for one of my children; but i wouldn't give you a nickel for another one!

About 130,000 women...in one year and that's assuming they are the only ones (those having multiple abortions not being considered). As I said, "many", I'm not being critical of their decisions, it's their choice, but it is using abortion as a birth control method.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

About 130,000 women...in one year and that's assuming they are the only ones (those having multiple abortions not being considered). As I said, "many", I'm not being critical of their decisions, it's their choice, but it is using abortion as a birth control method.

all that said, it's one in ten. and a repeat abortion doesn't mean no other bc was used.
a lady i work with will be a grandmother again soon. her daughter had an iud implanted (merino or something to that effect) it apparently came out with no one realizing, daughter is pregnant with #4. many bc methods aren't foolproof, doesn't mean there was no use at all.
at any rate, i'm not about to tell someone else what to do or not to do-it's none of my business.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

all that said, it's one in ten. and a repeat abortion doesn't mean no other bc was used.
a lady i work with will be a grandmother again soon. her daughter had an iud implanted (merino or something to that effect) it apparently came out with no one realizing, daughter is pregnant with #4. many bc methods aren't foolproof, doesn't mean there was no use at all.
at any rate, i'm not about to tell someone else what to do or not to do-it's none of my business.

I agree!

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, Dr K, the various serial killers among us (I don't recall how many the FBI says are around), the Hemlock Society and other such groups, and supporters of Capital Punishment (ironically including many folks who are "pro-life")

I think it is ironic that people against the death penalty are for abortion

what crime could a baby commit to deserve the death penalty?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I think it is ironic that people against the death penalty are for abortion

what crime could a baby commit to deserve the death penalty?

They don't kill babies they abort a fetus. Its legal and has been for some time or do you simply not recognize what is legal but against your holier than thou moral code.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I think it is ironic that people against the death penalty are for abortion

what crime could a baby commit to deserve the death penalty?

Yeah, it works both ways....seems like if you support abortion you would support the death penalty and vice versa. Of course the argument is that the fetus isn't really a baby while the otherside says that a baby is innocent while the person sentenced to death is not. Convenient arguments both ways.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I think it is ironic that people against the death penalty are for abortion

what crime could a baby commit to deserve the death penalty?

I think it is ironic certain pro life people are also blatant homophobes. Fetus's should have rights, but not gays.

Make a lot of sense.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Yeah, it works both ways....seems like if you support abortion you would support the death penalty and vice versa. Of course the argument is that the fetus isn't really a baby while the otherside says that a baby is innocent while the person sentenced to death is not. Convenient arguments both ways.

i think there's a huge difference between a woman deciding to be pregnant or not, and a state killing it's citizens as a form of punishment. pro choice people aren't necessarily pro-abortion. they may be pro-mind your business, let another person make up their mind type people, while being against execution as a form of punishment.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think there's a huge difference between a woman deciding to be pregnant or not, and a state killing it's citizens as a form of punishment. pro choice people aren't necessarily pro-abortion. they may be pro-mind your business, let another person make up their mind type people, while being against execution as a form of punishment.

That's an example of the weaknesses of a sound bite society where every position is reduced to as few descriptive words as possible and everyone is pigeon-holed into one description or the other. Despite my post about serial killers etc. it is obvious that most folks are "pro-life" as opposed to "pro-death", likewise most folks are generally "pro-choice" as opposed to restricting freedom of choice overall. I would say that I am philosophically opposed to abortion but realize that in the end it's a choice made by the individual. I support all logical means of reducing the abortion rate but don't want to see folks forced into a decision by others....so where does that put me?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

That's an example of the weaknesses of a sound bite society where every position is reduced to as few descriptive words as possible and everyone is pigeon-holed into one description or the other. Despite my post about serial killers etc. it is obvious that most folks are "pro-life" as opposed to "pro-death", likewise most folks are generally "pro-choice" as opposed to restricting freedom of choice overall. I would say that I am philosophically opposed to abortion but realize that in the end it's a choice made by the individual. I support all logical means of reducing the abortion rate but don't want to see folks forced into a decision by others....so where does that put me?

That makes you "pro-choice."

The pro-choice position leaves room for the other side, and those opposed to abortion to not have them, because it's their choice.

The anti-choice position does not leave room for the other side.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

That makes you "pro-choice."


The anti-choice position does not leave room for the other side.

but pro-life does.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

but pro-life does.

Not really. At least not in the way the term is used in general -- "pro-life" positions do not leave room for women to make decisions about their own bodies. The "pro-life" position (unless you're using it in a personal abstract, and not the common way we know it) wants to have people completely uninvolved in the situation (legislators) making choices for women, rather than women making them for themselves.

In that way, the "pro-life" position as it's generally understood does not leave room for the pro-choice position at all, because it inherently erases choice -- that's basically the main feature of the entire position.