Vote on Debt Limit increase?

[dellinger63]

We need to lower our debt period. To do so there is no need to raise the debt ceiling. Spending our way out of this got us nowhere but deeper. Time to button up the purse and track every nickel and dime. The party is over and the freeloaders need to go home.

And not speculation but we're already f'd and will suffer a hit on our credit rating. Question is whether it's better to have 1 trillion in debt at 10% or 3 trillion? We need to first turn the money faucet off and then figure out a payment plan for all the money that was allowed to leak out.

Interesting what the 'market' said today, "Gold futures rose to a record $1,500.50 an ounce as U.S. debt concerns weighed on the dollar, boosting demand for the precious metal as an alternative investment.

The greenback dropped against the euro on speculation that the European Central Bank will continue to raise borrowing costs as some nations struggle to contain sovereign debt. Standard & Poor’s yesterday revised its long-term outlook on U.S. debt to negative from stable. Gold has climbed 32 percent in the past year, and silver prices have more than doubled.

“The U.S. credit rating will undoubtedly be lowered in the next few years,” said Michael Pento, a senior economist at Euro Pacific Capital in New York. “This will mean much higher borrowing costs and a much lower currency. International investors have been using gold and silver as an alternative currency and an alternative to the dollar, and this will only exacerbate and accelerate that process.”

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by Riot

Not raising the debt ceiling isn't an action that cuts spending and borrowing, is it?

And what what type of talk has negatively influenced that recent S & P announcement? Oh, yeah - politicos yammering on about doing something completely idiotic, not raising the debt ceiling.

Actually that isn't the reason....it's the long term debt.

S&P said, “We believe there is a significant risk that congressional negotiations could result in no agreement on a medium-term fiscal strategy until after the fall 2012 congressional and presidential elections.” In such a case, the first budget that could include serious fiscal measures would be for the 2014 fiscal year, the report concluded, “and we believe a delay beyond that time is possible.”

[Riot]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Actually that isn't the reason....it's the long term debt.

S&P said, “We believe there is a significant risk that congressional negotiations could result in no agreement on a medium-term fiscal strategy until after the fall 2012 congressional and presidential elections.” In such a case, the first budget that could include serious fiscal measures would be for the 2014 fiscal year, the report concluded, “and we believe a delay beyond that time is possible.”

Yet what you quote proves my point, that yes, one of the reasons S & P (and the rest of the financial world, including our Wall Street which has warned the GOP about not effing with this for political reasons) isn't happy is our lack of serious responsibility-taking about the debt

What did you think of Tim Geithner's letter he sent to Reid in January of this year? (the link is in the Ezra Klein excerpt I posted). We would have to raise the debt ceiling to avoid default even if we never accrued one more penny of charged debt.

[joeydb]

I would vote against this in Congress, and try to get many others to do the same. Rubber stamping debt increases is not going to provide any incentive for the necessary slashing of spending.

If the "Day of Reckoning" comes sooner, so be it. For in order to end this debt crisis gracefully, there will have to be a severe and steady deceleration of spending.

To keep raising the debt ceiling until the creditors (a.k.a. China et al.) cut us off is not an answer.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

I would vote against this in Congress, and try to get many others to do the same. Rubber stamping debt increases is not going to provide any incentive for the necessary slashing of spending.

If the "Day of Reckoning" comes sooner, so be it. For in order to end this debt crisis gracefully, there will have to be a severe and steady deceleration of spending.

To keep raising the debt ceiling until the creditors (a.k.a. China et al.) cut us off is not an answer.

So you're entirely okay with the United States defaulting on our debt, and pushing the world into a worldwide recession? And living with the poverty and increased interest rates for everyone (by marked percentage points) for the next two decades at least, if not permanently? The permanent change of life as we know it in the United States? The US becoming no longer a leading first world country?

That's crazy and irresponsible. That is exactly what will happen if we never borrow one more penny, but fail to raise the debt ceiling.

Seriously, Joey - what did you think of Geithner's January letter? That's it's a lie?

You wanna know what we would have to "slash" for the remainder of this year and next in order to not increase the debt ceiling? $754 billion. That's physically impossible.

Hey, you guys can continue to argue that position. I'm out. It's a batshiat crazy position.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yet what you quote proves my point, that yes, one of the reasons S & P (and the rest of the financial world, including our Wall Street which has warned the GOP about not effing with this for political reasons) isn't happy is our lack of serious responsibility-taking about the debt

What did you think of Tim Geithner's letter he sent to Reid in January of this year? (the link is in the Ezra Klein excerpt I posted). We would have to raise the debt ceiling to avoid default even if we never accrued one more penny of charged debt.

Yeah like I would believe what Geithner says - he's a political tool.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

So you're entirely okay with the United States defaulting on our debt, and pushing the world into a worldwide recession? And living with the poverty and increased interest rates for everyone (by marked percentage points) for the next two decades at least, if not permanently? The permanent change of life as we know it in the United States? The US becoming no longer a leading first world country?

That's crazy and irresponsible. That is exactly what will happen if we never borrow one more penny, but fail to raise the debt ceiling.

Seriously, Joey - what did you think of Geithner's January letter? That's it's a lie?

You wanna know what we would have to "slash" for the remainder of this year and next in order to not increase the debt ceiling? $754 billion. That's physically impossible.

Hey, you guys can continue to argue that position. I'm out. It's a batshiat crazy position.

Every time the debt ceiling vote comes up, it is raised. EVERY time. That's batshiat crazy. And, if we go Riot's way, and many agree with her,it's a "must" to keep borrowing more...when we can't afford the debt we already have.

The crazy and irresponsible behavior has already occurred: the accumulation of this debt in the first place.

Every other effect you list: poverty, decline in world position for our country, standard of living changes, will certainly occur when we cannot borrow one more penny from a creditor. That day is rapidly approaching. By choosing to limit our own borrowing - as late in the game as it is - give us a chance to recover.

Automatically raising the debt ceiling - which is what will occur every time so long as we are driven by fear - will not let us change course at all until we default - for real - permanently, and every effect you list will be even more severe.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

You wanna know what we would have to "slash" for the remainder of this year and next in order to not increase the debt ceiling? $754 billion. That's physically impossible.

Why? If they can borrow and spend $862 billion as part of a "stimulus", why can't we cut an amount less than that?

[lord007]

How About Stop Spending Period??????

[lord007]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Yeah like I would believe what Geithner says - he's a political tool.

Did he pay his taxes this year??

[joeydb]

I was thinking more along the lines of a straight up-or-down vote, but it also appears that a filibuster is a possibility:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...-ceiling-vote/

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by lord007

Did he pay his taxes this year??

[joeydb]

That "winner" trophy icon never shows up on my browser(s). Can we get that fixed or substitute a picture of Charlie Sheen or something?

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by joeydb

That "winner" trophy icon never shows up on my browser(s). Can we get that fixed or substitute a picture of Charlie Sheen or something?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Why? If they can borrow and spend $862 billion as part of a "stimulus", why can't we cut an amount less than that?

Thats what I was thinking.

we need to slash everything by 25% across the board. Starting with military.

[joeydb]

Still would vote no, and will call congressman and senators to try to persuade them.

Spend more? The answer is "NO!" Enough.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Still would vote no, and will call congressman and senators to try to persuade them.

Spend more? The answer is "NO!" Enough.

I wish you could understand the basic concept that the debt ceiling being raised has nothing at all to do with increasing our spending.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

I wish you could understand the basic concept that the debt ceiling being raised has nothing at all to do with increasing our spending.

Well it SHOULD, should it not? Why are we spending more than we take in, ever, let alone for many, many years?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Well it SHOULD, should it not? Why are we spending more than we take in, ever, let alone for many, many years?

That has nothing to do with our debt ceiling, though. That's budgeting. And budget trouble started back in 2000, Joey. Yes, not from scratch, but we did some very major things to screw ourselves during the 2000's. There is no denying that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_ceiling#Debt_ceiling

Look: if you are paying compounding interest rates of X on your car, house and credit cards, saying you no longer can afford to pay X, you want to pay X - 3, doesn't make those interest rates drop or go away.

You can say you refuse to pay that accumulating, compounding interest any more, but saying that doesn't make it go away, and defaulting on it is a financial disaster. There is also the component of the debt ceiling that goes to our cash flow.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

That has nothing to do with our debt ceiling, though. That's budgeting. And budget trouble started back in 2000, Joey. Yes, not from scratch, but we did some very major things to screw ourselves during the 2000's. There is no denying that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_ceiling#Debt_ceiling

Look: if you are paying compounding interest rates of X on your car, house and credit cards, saying you no longer can afford to pay X, you want to pay X - 3, doesn't make those interest rates drop or go away.

You can say you refuse to pay that accumulating, compounding interest any more, but saying that doesn't make it go away, and defaulting on it is a financial disaster. There is also the component of the debt ceiling that goes to our cash flow.

The way to pay X-3 in your example is to not take on any more debt, by slashing other spending until you are below what you take in. Then you have extra money not to spend but to pay down that debt with. You might then be in a position to negotiate a lower interest rate over a longer period of time. But at least at that point you have a workable plan with which to retire the debt.

The congress is doing neither. They are not cutting spending, and they always hit a deficit level of spending almost every year.

If you live above your means today, you will have to live below your means in the future to make up for it. That's just math.

So, let's bite bullet and slash the spending with a chainsaw, and pay down the debt. That means no debt ceiling raises. In fact, once we start paying down the debt I want a debt ceiling contraction.