Occupy Wall Street

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

The main thing coming out of this is that the middle class is pissed off and government and Wallstreet types are on notice. We have the ability to assemble in large numbers and if you keep this **** up maybe the next time we won't be so peaceful. That is the message I am getting.

Nobody is promoting violence, in fact, they are specifically telling people to not be violence, to be peaceful at all times.

There has already been one documented case (video) of a right-wingnut agent provocateur (at the Smithsonian incident in DC) - and the fool bragged about it on his employers magazine blog. Then the altered it, then they took it off the site completely. But of course, everyone got screenshots. He'll be arrested. He claimed to be the only one who broke through the police line and got inside.

He got tourists pepper-sprayed.

The non-American media has so much better coverage of OWS than the American media:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...?newsfeed=true

A conservative US news magazine has come under fire after one of its journalists boasted of being an agent provocateur at a clash between protesters and security guards in Washington.

The incident, in which guards used pepper spray on protesters trying to enter the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum, was widely reported to be linked to the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Patrick Howley, an assistant editor at the American Spectator, wrote over the weekend that he had infiltrated the protest group in order to discredit it.

He said: "As far as anyone knew I was part of this cause — a cause that I had infiltrated the day before in order to mock and undermine in the pages of the American Spectator — and I wasn't giving up before I had my story."

However, Howley's breathless account of his role as provocateur – which goes on to condemn the protesters' "lack of nerve to confront authority", and his own determination to escalate the protest further as he rushed past security guards into the museum – has since been altered.

Continued ...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...n-DC-%28NEW%29

Conservative Magazine Brags of its Agent Provocateurs Role in Provoking Police Action in DC

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

I saw the best bumper sticker today on a truck at the Tractor Supply here in Red State:

"Dang right I'm a Christian. And I'm a Democrat"

I remember back in the 1960's, kids telling their parents that they should be allowed to have hair over their collar, because, you know, Jesus had long hair

Reminds me of a verse from Bob Dylan's 115 Dream:
"Well, I rapped upon a house
With the US flag upon display
I said, "Could you help me out
I got some friends down the way
" The man says, "Get out of here
I'll tear you limp from limb"
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him
Get out of here before I break your bones
I ain't your pop"
I decided to have him arrested
And I went lookin for a cop."
Ah the good old 60's when some things seemed to make sense!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Ah the good old 60's when some things seemed to make sense!

"If you're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough to vote for the man who is sending you there."

It took like 8-10 years of protests before there was change in the late 1960's. And they had to kill Kennedy, Kennedy & King first - and Watergate.

[Riot]

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video...tests-14699460

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, if you are a Christian then you believe Jesus was the son of God, he had, by all depictions, long hair and most likely a straggly appearance. A person's worth shouldn't be measured by his/her appearance, this is a fight women have been fighting forever and is the basis for so much hate...racism, fear of folks from other climates and cultures etc.

Jesus would not have been for this guy about to defecate on a police car:

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

The main thing coming out of this is that the middle class is pissed off and government and Wallstreet types are on notice. We have the ability to assemble in large numbers and if you keep this **** up maybe the next time we won't be so peaceful. That is the message I am getting.

Isn't most of the middle class working or taking care of thier kids?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

They're not protesting "greed" so much as they are protesting a system they see as rigged against the middle class.

Michael Moore lives in Michigan.

I agree with you about the state of economic affairs in Europe.

The system has always been rigged. You can throw out all the charts and numbers that you want but the thing that is different now than it was years ago is that because of consumer credit, govt intrusion into programs for political purposes and simple evolution of social means what the "middle class" means are far greater than what it once did. Seriously think of middle Amercan 50 years ago and then think of it now? Outside of healthcare being a far greater expense now the midle class lives a far more prosperous life than it did.

The Gov't caused the housing bubble that burst just as much as the banks. BUT what are we going to do about it now? What do you do with people that can't pay thier mortages (despite record low interest rates) yet never should have been in that home in the 1st place? Don't they share any blame? Or the people who maxed out credit cards and now find that their credit sucks. Is that the banks fault for giving them the cards in the 1st place? Laying blame is a tricky thing as usually all parties share some of it.

The amount of money the rich has is really immaterial in many ways as so much of it isn't tangible anyway. If I was worth 1/2 billion dollars but the vast majority of it was in Solyndra stock, well how is that holding the common man down? Hell I'm broke now too! Too many people that think that they are being held down by the system don't look at themselves. Sure if you are from old money and get chauffered into Yale or Princeton you are born with an advantage. Sure the rich (really rich not the nouveau rich) manipulate the system but they always have. But that same system allows people that come from nothing to prosper if they come up with something original and work hard at it.

Protesting is great if it brings light to your cause. But you have to have a plan to further that cause and I'm afraid that the general message that most people get from Occupy Wall Street is those people are mad and fed up but really have no clue as to how to change anything. This is different than protesting a war or civil rights. A war can end and civil rights can be enacted via laws. How do suppose you "change the system" or rid the Earth of greed?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Seriously think of middle Amercan 50 years ago and then think of it now? Outside of healthcare being a far greater expense now the midle class lives a far more prosperous life than it did.

Sorry, no. All the economic data says no to your theory of "far more prosperous". And here is that data, in the link below.

By every metric: real income, buying power, tax liability, etc - no, people are not more prosperous now. They are less prosperous. The middle class has been disappearing.

And the fact that the data says "no" to "more prosperous life", and in fact they have a less prosperous life - is exactly why Occupy Wall Street is occurring.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...=sidebyuserrec

Oh, yeah: not to mention today's headline about the continued diminishment of the middle class:

Recession Officially Over, U.S. Incomes Kept Falling
By ROBERT PEAR Published: October 9, 2011

WASHINGTON — In a grim sign of the enduring nature of the economic slump, household income declined more in the two years after the recession ended than it did during the recession itself, new research has found.

Between June 2009, when the recession officially ended, and June 2011, inflation-adjusted median household income fell 6.7 percent, to $49,909, according to a study by two former Census Bureau officials. During the recession — from December 2007 to June 2009 — household income fell 3.2 percent.

Continued ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/us...t-falling.html

Originally Posted by Riot

Sorry, no. All the economic data says no to your theory of "far more prosperous". And here is that data, in the link below.

By every metric: real income, buying power, tax liability, etc - no, people are not more prosperous now. They are less prosperous. The middle class has been disappearing.

And the fact that the data says "no" to "more prosperous life", and in fact they have a less prosperous life - is exactly why Occupy Wall Street is occurring.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...=sidebyuserrec

Oh, yeah: not to mention today's headline about the continued diminishment of the middle class:

Yeah maybe from a technology standpoint but that affordability is dictated by the ruling class. In fact there are people who believe our government has technology that is 20 years ahead of what Joe Public is given.

I tend to believe it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Yeah maybe from a technology standpoint but that affordability is dictated by the ruling class. In fact there are people who believe our government has technology that is 20 years ahead of what Joe Public is given.

I tend to believe it.

How do you think the government would be reacting if all these thousands of OWS protesters in Manhattan, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, DC, etc. - you know, the folks characterized as "angry mob" by Eric Cantor - looked more like this?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Sorry, no. All the economic data says no to your theory of "far more prosperous". And here is that data, in the link below.

By every metric: real income, buying power, tax liability, etc - no, people are not more prosperous now. They are less prosperous. The middle class has been disappearing.

And the fact that the data says "no" to "more prosperous life", and in fact they have a less prosperous life - is exactly why Occupy Wall Street is occurring.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...=sidebyuserrec

Oh, yeah: not to mention today's headline about the continued diminishment of the middle class:

The data is of course subject to context. Think back to when typical middle class families had no credit cards, no home equity loans, one car, no formal personal retirement accounts, very little investment opportunity, during the 70' were paying 18% interest on mortgages, when access to higher education was more limited, when leasing a "luxury" car was impossible. Think back to when only rich people could go on a caribbean cruise, when a single income earner was sufficent, before the luxuries of the rich like cell phones were available at a reasonable cost to anyone. Before average people could afford personal computers or flat screen tv's.

How did the middle class fare in 1929? How did they fare in 1939? In 1979?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Think back to when typical middle class families had no credit cards

A good thing.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

no home equity loans

A good thing

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

one car

A good thing.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

no formal personal retirement accounts

No debt + saving your income + 21% interest rate on bank CD's equals great retirement account.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

very little investment opportunity

A good thing.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

during the 70' were paying 18% interest on mortgages, when access to higher education was more limited, when leasing a "luxury" car was impossible.

Bring back Jimmy Carter! Grandpa Sal's all-time favorite president.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Think back to when only rich people could go on a caribbean cruise

I wouldn't go on a caribbean cruise if it cost zero.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

before the luxuries of the rich like cell phones were available at a reasonable cost to anyone.

I had no Cell phone for about six months -- best six months of my life.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Before average people could afford personal computers or flat screen tv's.

You have a point here. We are in a golden age of porn and masturbation material.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

A good thing.




A good thing






A good thing.




No debt + saving your income + 21% interest rate on bank CD's equals great retirement account.




A good thing.




Bring back Jimmy Carter! Grandpa Sal's all-time favorite president.





I wouldn't go on a caribbean cruise if it cost zero.




I had no Cell phone for about six months -- best six months of my life.




You have a point here. We are in a golden age of porn and masturbation material.

You are not middle class, you are in a class of your own

[Riot]

Posted by Cannon Shell
Seriously think of middle Amercan 50 years ago and then think of it now? Outside of healthcare being a far greater expense now the midle class lives a far more prosperous life than it did.

[jms62]

Folks are starting to get serious..

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/10/news...test/index.htm

[slotdirt]

Sorry, but I'm missing the point in all of this. Rich people are rich and therefore are evil? Taxes should be higher because Warren Buffett's secretary pays a higher income tax rate than Buffett himself (because, well, he doesn't take a salary.)?

Seriously, I don't understand the point of these protests. If you want to go to a place where everybody pays taxes out the wazoo, move to Europe. Don't begrudge the wealthy just because they've worked hard to earn their money.

[Clip-Clop]

Stopped by occupy Denver this morning with a stack of job apps. Not a lot of takers. Even the guy whose sign said "We Want Jobs!!!" he must've meant Steve.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Sorry, but I'm missing the point in all of this. Rich people are rich and therefore are evil? Taxes should be higher because Warren Buffett's secretary pays a higher income tax rate than Buffett himself (because, well, he doesn't take a salary.)?

Seriously, I don't understand the point of these protests. If you want to go to a place where everybody pays taxes out the wazoo, move to Europe. Don't begrudge the wealthy just because they've worked hard to earn their money.

don't begrudge them? we pay and pay, they can too, can't they? the koch brothers are loaded--i thought if we didn't tax the rich, they'd create jobs??instead, 700 people here just got their walking papers courtesy of the kochs. yeah, because laying off more folks will help turn the economy around!!

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Danzig

don't begrudge them? we pay and pay, they can too, can't they? the koch brothers are loaded--i thought if we didn't tax the rich, they'd create jobs??instead, 700 people here just got their walking papers courtesy of the kochs. yeah, because laying off more folks will help turn the economy around!!

Obfuscation. The federal income tax is 35 percent for the top bracket. 35 percent. How is that not a "fair share?" If 35 percent of any human's income isn't their fair share to fund the government, what is? 50 percent? 60 percent?

When a staggering percentage of the rich have profited off of the decade-long wars? 85%