Trainers Love the New Track at Hollywood

[repent]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Kev, You and I are both fans of English Channel. As you know, I tried to buy him before anyone had heard of him. I tried to buy him back when he was only an allowance horse. Even though we are both fans of the horse, you know as well as I do that he's not the best turf horse in the country. He just ran 4th in two of his last three races. He didn't have any real excuse in either race. He would have obviously liked a little more pace in his last race but you can't use that as an excuse because he was actually losing ground in the stretch. As big a fan as youa re of the horse, I'm sure you would be the first to admit that he's not the best turf horse in the country right now.

oh,
so you throw out the Woodforf Reserve and UN?
wtf are you thinking?
on firm ground, he is the best 12f US turf horse.
Cacique is a really nice horse and might be better on both of Belmont's turf courses, but EC has the better chance to win at 12f at CD.


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[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by repent

WRONG

you are misquoting me dude.

I never mentioned the year 2003.

I said he had been better in the past and been beaten in the BC Turf.
anyone with any historical knowledge of US turf racing knows the he was in better form in 2002.
won the American Handicap and the Hirsch Memorial that year.
was allowed to set slow fractions in the BC Turf at Arlington and still could only manage a 4th place finish in a somewhat weak running of the race.

and now you think he is going to run with horses like Hurrican Run, Cacique and English Channel?

you are out of your mind.

if you are going to quote me, at least be accurate.


Repent

I thought you were talking about the last time he ran in the BC Turf which was in 2003. Now I realize you were talking about 2002. Fair enough.

I still don't think it's logical to handicap the horse based on what he did 4 year ago. I think what he's done this year is a little more relevant. He's run 5 times this year and he's won 4 out of 5. His only lost was his 2nd place finish in the $5 million Dubai race to David Junior. I think he is coming into the race this year with pretty good credentials running 2nd in that $5 million race and winning the Arlington Million.

I'm not saying he's going to win the race this year, but he is ceratinly a legitimate contender. He's the best turf horse in the country right now. I do think he's probably a little better horse at 1 1/4 miles.

[repent]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I thought you were talking about the last time he ran in the BC Turf which was in 2003. Now I realize you were talking about 2002. Fair enough.

I still don't think it's logical to handicap the horse based on what he did 4 year ago. I think what he's done this year is a little more relevant. He's run 5 times this year and he's won 4 out of 5. His only lost was his 2nd place finish in the $5 million Dubai race to David Junior. I think he is coming into the race this year with pretty good credentials running 2nd in that $5 million race and winning the Arlington Million.

I'm not saying he's going to win the race this year, but he is ceratinly a legitimate contender. He's the best turf horse in the country right now. I do think he's probably a little better horse at 1 1/4 miles.

Im not saying what he did 3 or 4 years ago is a handicapping tool,
Im just saying he was a better horse in the past and lost in what was a weaker field with easier circumstances than what he will face on Nov 4 at CD.

hes not all that great at 12 and the race in Dubai was barely over a mile.

if you are impressed by that Arl Million race, then good luck to you.
those were just plain stupid fractions.



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[Danzig]

Originally Posted by repent

those were just plain stupid fractions.



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that's true...but i can never forget war emblems preakness. everyone knew what he had done to win the derby...and then they watched him go out and do it again in md. ooops.

thing is, tin man could easily do it again. run him down early, wear him out, and you might find yourself backing up as well late.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by repent

oh,
so you throw out the Woodforf Reserve and UN?
wtf are you thinking?
on firm ground, he is the best 12f US turf horse.
Cacique is a really nice horse and might be better on both of Belmont's turf courses, but EC has the better chance to win at 12f at CD.


Repent

I'm not throwing out those races but if he's so great he wouldn't be running 4th every other race. You can hardly use the excuse about firm ground. EC's record is better when the turf is not firm. His win in that $400,000 race at Churchill in May was on turf labeled "soft". His win in the stakes race at Gulfstream this year was on turf labeled "soft". Last year, he won three races on tracks labeled either "good" or "yielding". His record on turf courses labeled "firm" is not nearly as good.

[Danzig]

but weren't both of english channels losses at 10f? remember sulamani in the arl million a couple years back? class of the field, but the distance was far from his best. three horses finished ahead of him i believe.

[repent]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not throwing out those races but if he's so great he wouldn't be running 4th every other race. You can hardly use the excuse about firm ground. EC's record is better when the turf is not firm. His win in that $400,000 race at Churchill in May was on turf labeled "soft". His win in the stakes race at Gulfstream this year was on turf labeled "soft". Last year, he won three races on tracks labeled either "good" or "yielding". His record on turf courses labeled "firm" is not nearly as good.

you misunderstand me again.
I did not say he needed or was better on firm.

I said, in those conditions, he is America's best turf horse.
freaking read what I type w/out reading into it what you want.

and that 4th in the Manhattan was a very good effort.
all 4 finished together.

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[repent]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

that's true...but i can never forget war emblems preakness. everyone knew what he had done to win the derby...and then they watched him go out and do it again in md. ooops.

thing is, tin man could easily do it again. run him down early, wear him out, and you might find yourself backing up as well late.

yeah,
but this kind of goes back to my 2002 point.

he set those slow fractions at Arlington.
and still lost to horses that are not near as good as what he will face on Nov 4 at CD.

High Chaparral was the only real international Grade 1 horse in that field.
With Anticipation was just the best of a bad US bunch.

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[Cannon Shell]

Does English Channel own a victory at 12 furlongs?

[repent]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Does English Channel own a victory at 12 furlongs?

no,
barely lost to Shakes at Belmont last year in the Turf Invite at 12f and ran the best race out of US horses in the BCT.

won at 11f at Monmouth.

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[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by repent

you misunderstand me again.
I did not say he needed or was better on firm.

I said, in those conditions, he is America's best turf horse.
freaking read what I type w/out reading into it what you want.

and that 4th in the Manhattan was a very good effort.
all 4 finished together.

Repent

How was his 4th place finish in New york a good effort? He lost to Silver Whistle and Sabre d' Argent that day. I don't think that effort would get the job done in the BC Turf.

By the way, the race in Dubai was 1 1/4 miles.

With regard to the Arlington Million, The Tin Man was obviously the best horse. Cacique was within a neck of him at the quarter pole and then Tin Man blew his away. It would be one thing if The Tin Man was out there with a 3 length lead and then barely held off the closers. That's not what happened. He pulled away from them in the stretch. He had a better late kick than the closers. He would have won the race no matter what the pace scenario was.

[Cannon Shell]

So the best american horse at 12 furlongs has never actually won at the distance?
Doesn't say much about the American Turf Horses.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I like English Channel, a lot. But it depends on how you look at it. I guess since Aragorn and Cacique were originally Euro's he could be considered our best. But, if you think of Cacique and Aragorn as Americans now, EC is 3rd at best. No way EC beats Aragorn in a mile to 1 1/8 race, and after his last I really think Cacique has turned the corner. Cacique hasn't thrown in a clunker like EC has.

He's not as good as The Tin Man right now. Look at what The Tin Man has done this year. He's 4 for 5 with a win in the Arlingto Million and a 2nd to David Junior in a $5 million race. You can't even compare EC to the The Tin Man right now.

[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I like English Channel, a lot. But it depends on how you look at it. I guess since Aragorn and Cacique were originally Euro's he could be considered our best. But, if you think of Cacique and Aragorn as Americans now, EC is 3rd at best. No way EC beats Aragorn in a mile to 1 1/8 race, and after his last I really think Cacique has turned the corner. Cacique hasn't thrown in a clunker like EC has.

well,
Aragorn is awesome.
not going to run against EC in the BC, but yes, oif they met at a midde distance of 9f, Aragorn would win.

Cacique is a really nice horse who I really thought was the best middle distance turf horse..
Kev will tell you I always said he was better than EC even after the Woodford Reserve.
but EC's Manhattan was impressive to me (even in defeat) and the UN was awesome.
that made me a believer.


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[repent]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

How was his 4th place finish in New york a good effort? He lost to Silver Whistle and Sabre d' Argent that day. I don't think that effort would get the job done in the BC Turf.

By the way, the race in Dubai was 1 1/4 miles.

With regard to the Arlington Million, The Tin Man was obviously the best horse. Cacique was within a neck of him at the quarter pole and then Tin Man blew his away. It would be one thing if The Tin Man was out there with a 3 length lead and then barely held off the closers. That's not what happened. He pulled away from them in the stretch. He had a better late kick than the closers. He would have won the race no matter what the pace scenario was.

wtf are you talking about?

English Channel lost to Cacique, Relaxed Gesture, and Grey Swallow in the Manhattan.
you are losing it pal.

and you honestly think the Dubai Duty Free is run at 10f?????
get some help. its just short of 1800 meters.
why the hell would they run the Dubai Duty Free at 10f and the Dubai Sheema Classic at 12f?
they would not and nobody besides you would even think it was a possibility.


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[repent]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So the best american horse at 12 furlongs has never actually won at the distance?
Doesn't say much about the American Turf Horses.

yeah,
the Euros are always better in this division.
no surprise considering this is what they breed for.

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[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yeah you know, I keep forgetting about him. The Tin Man has been awesome this year, and Mandella deserves a lot of credit for what he has done. I personally think that Cacique might be better than TTM, but he did beat him head to head.

They were literally head and head at the quarter pole. The Tin Man totally blew him away from there. It was no contest. He had a 3 length lead on him by the time they hit the 1/16th pole. It shows you who has the better acceleration of the two horses.

[repent]

Rupert,
you said you tried to purchase English Channel?
wtf do you do?
if you are involved in the business,
you damn well should know the results of the Manhattan and at least have some clue as to what distance the Dubai Duty Free is run at.

thats just plain common knowledge.

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[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I agree, even after the Woodford I thought he was better. His UN was an awesome effort, but I think Cacique negotiates the 1 1/2 better than EC does BC day.

ok,
thats interesting and at least a debatable subject(not like the distance of the Dubai Duty Free).

see,
I and most ppl(including Frankel) thought Cacique was a miler/10f horse.
if you had asked me in June where Cacque would run in November, I would have said the BC Mile.
but he ran well at 11 in the MOW and I think(from watching the post race interview) that it even surprised Frankel how well he appreciated the distance.

maybe he is going to like 12 more than most of us thought.
i would not be surprised and I expect that he wlll run well.
in the end though, I think he can run the race of his life and still lose to the Euros(the real ones).

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[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by repent

wtf are you talking about?

English Channel lost to Cacique, Relaxed Gesture, and Grey Swallow in the Manhattan.
you are losing it pal.

and you honestly think the Dubai Duty Free is run at 10f?????
get some help. its just short of 1800 meters.
why the hell would they run the Dubai Duty Free at 10f and the Dubai Sheema Classic at 12f?
they would not and nobody besides you would even think it was a possibility.


Repent

I was looking at the post positions instead of the program numbers. You are right that Relaxed Gesture ran 2nd and Grey Swallow ran 3rd in that race. That's really impressive. Relaxed Gesture is a real world beater.

The Duty Free race is shorter than I thought. It's about 1 1/8 miles.