Champions Who Failed As Stallions

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by sumitas

Some excellent points Todko. AP Indy has had success served up to him on a plate.

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

On another thread ... as a result of the possible retirement of Bernardini ... a youngster ... who doesn't know very much about this game ... asked me if a champion racehorse was ever a failure as a stallion.

I replied ... "Why sure, son ... there have been lots of them" ... and supplied this partial list for him to study and ponder ...

Ponder ... Citation ... Coaltown ... Hill Prince ... Iron Liege ... Tim Tam ... Nadir ... Sword Dancer ... Bald Eagle ... Crimson Satan ... Jaipur ... Ridan ... Never Bend ... Bold Lad ... Successor ... Dr. Fager ... Vitriolic ... Arts And Letters ... Personality ... Riva Ridge ... Ack Ack ... Sham ... Wajima ... Bold Forbes ... Youth ... Affirmed ... Spectacular Bid ... Lord Avie ... Temperence Hill ... Conquistador Cielo ... Devil's Bag ... Chief's Crown ... Spend A Buck ... Vanlandingham ... Turkoman ... Smile ... Alysheba ... Ferdinand ... Groovy ... Easy Goer ... Risen Star ... Rhythm ... Blushing John ... Steinlen ...Fly So Free ... Criminal Type ... Housebuster ... Arazi ... Hansel ... Black Tie Affair ... Gilded Time ... Pleasant Tap ... Rubiano ... Dehere ... Bertrando ... Timber Country ... Holy Bull ... Cigar ... Skip Away ... Lit De Justice ... Favorite Trick ... Silver Charm ... Free House ... Answer Lively ... Real Quiet ... Victory Gallop ... Artax ...

Can anyone out there add a few more ... to help educate one of our eager and deserving young friends?

Not one of these horses has close to the pedigree, conformation, and race record of Bernardini. Not even close. Some on your list were not too bad either.

Just to let you know, the mares have a little to do with it too. A horse like Bernardini, mainly because of his pedigree on top and bottom, will attract nothing but the best.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by georgewashington

Not one of these horses has close to the pedigree, conformation, and race record of Bernardini. Not even close. Some on your list were not too bad either.

Just to let you know, the mares have a little to do with it too. A horse like Bernardini, mainly because of his pedigree on top and bottom, will attract nothing but the best.

I keep looking at the pedigree of Bernardini and I'm frankly confounded by all these claims of "best pedigree ever".....I see nothing that I don't see in most stakes level thoroughbreds. AP Indy (who I'm not in love with as some "super sire") is known for his pedigree...Seattle Slew atop the great Secretariat broodmare Weekend Surprise. Good enough! But his dam side leaves me less than excited...Cara Rafaela is the daughter of Quiet American (ho hum) so you get the Fappiano (double ho hum), Mr P, RAN line that until this year was considered a kiss of death for the Derby...Oil Fable, Cara's dam out of The Bid (not a rousing success at stud). What's all the fuss?????

[2Hot4TV]

Cigar and Precisionist are at the top of the list

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I keep looking at the pedigree of Bernardini and I'm frankly confounded by all these claims of "best pedigree ever".....I see nothing that I don't see in most stakes level thoroughbreds. AP Indy (who I'm not in love with as some "super sire") is known for his pedigree...Seattle Slew atop the great Secretariat broodmare Weekend Surprise. Good enough! But his dam side leaves me less than excited...Cara Rafaela is the daughter of Quiet American (ho hum) so you get the Fappiano (double ho hum), Mr P, RAN line that until this year was considered a kiss of death for the Derby...Oil Fable, Cara's dam out of The Bid (not a rousing success at stud). What's all the fuss?????

Cara Rafaela placed in 10 graded stakes and is a grade 1 winner. Find me all the grade 1 winning mares that have placed 10x in graded stakes.

How you don't love AP Indy is pretty remarkable. He is a Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat Mare. It looks like he will have sired 2 of the last 4 Horses of the Year.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by georgewashington

Cara Rafaela placed in 10 graded stakes and is a grade 1 winner. Find me all the grade 1 winning mares that have placed 10x in graded stakes.

How you don't love AP Indy is pretty remarkable. He is a Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat Mare. It looks like he will have sired 2 of the last 4 Horses of the Year.

As I clearly stated, AP Indy's pedigree is unquestionable...I just don't see him yet as a "super sire" like some are claiming, he's too young...when he becomes a highly successful sire of sires, I will re-evaluate, for now, he's an excellent sire...as are many of the sires that appear in the pedigree's of top horses. I'm not in love with Unbridled either...early success does not always translate into anything more! Cara Rafaela was a classy runner but didn't win much, she brought the RAN curse with her...it was broken this year but still...hard to get super excited about RAN in dam's sire line. I will mention a few recent runners (there are many more) who's pedigree I prefer to Bernardini's...Empire Maker...that RAN line in the preferred sire's sire line with Unbridled in place of Quiet American, and the great Reines-de-course Toussaud as the dam, Sinndar and Giant's Causeway.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I keep looking at the pedigree of Bernardini and I'm frankly confounded by all these claims of "best pedigree ever".....I see nothing that I don't see in most stakes level thoroughbreds. AP Indy (who I'm not in love with as some "super sire") is known for his pedigree...Seattle Slew atop the great Secretariat broodmare Weekend Surprise. Good enough! But his dam side leaves me less than excited...Cara Rafaela is the daughter of Quiet American (ho hum) so you get the Fappiano (double ho hum), Mr P, RAN line that until this year was considered a kiss of death for the Derby...Oil Fable, Cara's dam out of The Bid (not a rousing success at stud). What's all the fuss?????

Not sure how you came up with this.. maybe its not the "best pedigree ever" Bern has one of the best pedigree to ever hit the track. Some of those Personal Ensign babies come to my mind as great, as well as Weekend Surpise babies and a ton of other quality and champion mares (I understand there were tons that were before my time), but to say that Bern doesnt rank up there with those with great pedigree's is not right. Then, you have to consider Bern's conformation and how fluid he runs.

He may not have enough races under his belt when he retires to be an "all time great", but you cant say that he is not the total package. Great breeding, confirmation... he has it all. Oh yea and 3 grade 1 wins and 2 grade 2 wins in 7 starts doesnt hurt either.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Not sure how you came up with this.. maybe its not the "best pedigree ever" Bern has one of the best pedigree to ever hit the track. Some of those Personal Ensign babies come to my mind as great, as well as Weekend Surpise babies and a ton of other quality and champion mares (I understand there were tons that were before my time), but to say that Bern doesnt rank up there with those with great pedigree's is not right. Then, you have to consider Bern's conformation and how fluid he runs.

He may not have enough races under his belt when he retires to be an "all time great", but you cant say that he is not the total package. Great breeding, confirmation... he has it all. Oh yea and 3 grade 1 wins and 2 grade 2 wins in 7 starts doesnt hurt either.

Again, don't put words into my mouth...I never said the pedigree was bad, I simply question those claiming it's somehow superior to all others...simply isn't so! I listed three horses with imo better pedigrees, I could if I wanted to take the time probably list a dozen or more. Bernardini's confirmation, movement and racing prowess were NOT the topic here...only his pedigree! I have never said he wasn't a special horse!

Originally Posted by todko

That's a distorted list. Some horses never had a chance . . . Dr. Fager for one. And the final chapter on some horses has yet to be written . . . Conquistador Cielo is an example.

There are nearly 70 horses on my list ...

... you cite two ... neither of whom remotely established a male line or had a sizable string of graded stakes winners. They were failures as stallions.

The only name on my original list that I would withdraw is Ack Ack ... whose male line still exists ... albeit by a thread.

I'm defining success by racing performance of their offspring ... and the establishment of a male line. Financial success doesn't count ... because most of that occurs immediaitely on syndication ... and disappears when the kids can't run.

Originally Posted by repent

well,

his horses look terrible a lot of times. but they can run and they are competitive.
that makes him an excellent sire in my book.

whatever..........they are runners.


Repent

You totally ruined his world. There are people who cannot separate good runners from good lookers.

Originally Posted by repent

how the hell are Affirmed, Easy Goer, Pleasant Tap, Rubiano, Dehere, Holy Bull, Free house, Real Quiet and Victory Gallop failures at stud?

I have no problem betting a VGallop horse. his offspring may not look like much, but he gets runners.
I dont have the numbers in front of me, but he produces winners at every level.


Repent

How are they failures?

None of them even remotely came close to establishing a successful male line ... nor did any of them sire a long string of successful graded stakes winners ... that's how.

Siring allowance winners that you cashed a bet on is not the measure of a succcessful stallion.

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I have to agree with Repent... not all of those horses were failures at stud. Victory gallop, artax (hasnt had enough runners to judge this yet), Cigar is sterile!, Pleasant Tap, Rubiano, Dehere, Betrando is a nice CA stallion (siring Officer, and 27 other stakes winners), Holy Bull (I thought one his offspring won the derby like two years ago..). Timber COuntry has sired a lot of good horses oversea's.

Not very impressed Bold!

Out of nearly 70 horses on the list ... you cite 9 of them as possible exceptions ... yet none of the ones you cite ... without mentioning the 60 others ... has come close to establishing a successful male line ... although it's remotely possible with Bertrando if Officer becomes a success as a stallion ... or has produced a long string of graded stakes winners.

None of their names will likely appear as the male progenitor of future champions.

[somerfrost]

Just a few more recent runners who have pedigrees I'd prefer to Bernardini:
Fusaichi Pegasus
Aptitude
AP Valentine
Medaglia d'Oro
Saarland
War Emblem
Birdstone...you want a special dam side, his dam, Dear Birdie ranks with Toussaud, a Reines-de-Course and Blue Hen!
Noble Causeway...that one is up for debate perhaps.

Originally Posted by VictoryGallop

I think Victory Gallop has had several Graded Stakes Winner's, so, I am not sure I would call that a failure.

Victory Gallop sired a handful of stakes winners ... none of them G1 ... in his first three crops.

It's extremely rare for a stallion's offspring to get better as he gets older ... so it's very, very unlikely that Victory Gallop will ever produce a series of G1 or other graded stakes winners ... nor that any of his sons will become successful stallions.

Originally Posted by VictoryGallop

Thanks, Repent ! This is probably one of my all time favorite horses and I always follow his progeny and have won a lot of money on these youngsters. I couldn't believe what I was reading.

Stallion success is measured by the quality of the runners they produce (sires of runners)... and whether or not any of their sons become successful sires (sires of sires) ... and/or if they produce a string of daughters who become successful broodmares (sires of broodmares) ...

... not by the number of bets you cash on claiming and allowance races.

Sires of Runners: There is a statistic called the Lifetime Average Earnings Index (Lifetime AEI) ... which provides a good measure of success as a sire of runners. Only stallions with Lifetime AEI's above 3.00 are generally considered to be successful sires of runners. I don't have that figure for all of the stallions I cited ... but I doubt if any of them are anywhere near 3.00. Also important is the percentage of stakes winners ... which should be above 10% ... and as high as 15% or more for the great stallions. None of the stallions I cited comes close to those figures.

Sires of Sires: This becomes evident when a stallions sons go to stud. It's a bit early for some of the more recent horses on my list ... but it's highly doubtful that any of them will produce one or more sons who are success at stud.

Broodmare Sires: Same as Sires of Sires ... but on the female side.

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

This list is absurd. It includes many stallions - like Ack Ack, Affirmed, Lord Avie, Conquistador Cielo, Devil's Bag, too many to list - who had good, productive careers as stallions. So they never led the sire lists; a lot of good sires don't . Many of those named figured among the top 10 or 20 during their careers. Horses who sire 9% SWs are not failures. Now Personality, that was a failure.

The list is "absurd" you say ... but ...

... of the nearly 70 horses on it ... you cite only 5 possible exceptions ... and provide no data ... none whatsoever ... to support your insipid ... as always ... assertions.

Hey Annie-Phonie ... why don't you cite their Lifetime AEI's ... or their SW% ... or their Broodmare CI's ... or their lists of successful sons at stud?

Huh ... huh ... huh? Or could it be .. once again .. that you're full of crap ... and haven't the slightest idea of what you're saying?

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'd love to see someone give an example of a Victory Gallop stakes winner. I'm sure there are, but everyone jumped on BB's back about him, yet not one mention of a stakes winner. Thats not a coincidence. His post was very accurate for what it's purpose was. It was to show it is impossible to predict how a sire will do. Yeah some of the names on there have had a some success as a sire, but none have produced in the farm like they produced on the track.

Please don't confuse this discussion with facts ...

... it's the emotional reaction that counts.

Originally Posted by miraja2

Here are some stakes winners by Victory Gallop:
Louisborg, Victorious Ami, Separato, Red Lifesaver, Rousing Victory.

Now that being said....I think BB is correct to say that Victory Gallop has not been a real big success as a sire. Being a sire of decent claimers and the occasional small stakes winner is fine, but as Oracle suggests, it isn't exactly what most people hope for when they send a champion like VG to the shed.

The list on the whole I think is rather good, but I have to take some issue with Affirmed.
The Tin Man
Flawlessly
Affirmed Success
Quiet Resolve
Affluent
Zoman
Peteski

Those were all MULTIPLE G1 winners by Affirmed which makes me wonder just how many MULTIPLE G1 winners you need to sire before you are no longer considered a failure. Add those names to his long list of other graded stakes winners and his success as a broodmare sire.....and I think calling him a failure is a tad inaccurate.

What was Affirmed's AEI and SW%?

Where are his successful sons at stud?

Which of his daughters have been successful broodmares?

Sorry ... Affirmed was a failure as a stallion.

Originally Posted by georgewashington

Not one of these horses has close to the pedigree, conformation, and race record of Bernardini. Not even close. Some on your list were not too bad either.

Just to let you know, the mares have a little to do with it too. A horse like Bernardini, mainly because of his pedigree on top and bottom, will attract nothing but the best.

So ... you're saying that the folowing horses weren't as good on the track ... or as well-bred as Bernardini ...

Citation ... Coaltown ... Hill Prince ... Tim Tam ... Nadir ... Sword Dancer ... Bald Eagle ... Jaipur ... Ridan ... Never Bend ... Bold Lad ... Successor ... Arts And Letters ... Personality ... Riva Ridge ... Sham ... Wajima ... Affirmed ... Spectacular Bid ... Devil's Bag ... Spend A Buck ... Alysheba ... Ferdinand ... Easy Goer ... Risen Star ... Criminal Type ... Holy Bull ... Cigar ... Skip Away ... Silver Charm ... Free House ... Real Quiet ... Victory Gallop ... Artax ...?

Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

What was Affirmed's AEI and SW%?

Where are his successful sons at stud?

Which of his daughters have been successful broodmares?

Sorry ... Affirmed was a failure as a stallion.

Affirmed was no more a failure than Alydar. Which sons of Alydar carry on the line? Few and far -between make it as racehorse and sire-of-sires. I see neither as failures because each give us some marvelous runners.