A 2nd BC Day?

[repent]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Name me one American juvenile turf horse. If you had to think for more than three seconds, there shouldn't be a juvenile turf race here.

dude,
thats b/c there are NO BC prep races for turf 2YOs.

2Yo's racing calender only exists in the 2nd part of the year.
there are not going to be any notable 2YO turf runners in the US without 2YO stakes races prior to the BC.
at this point in time, there is no real reason to card those types of stakes races.

Im not advocating a 2YO turf race.
im just saying its a more intersting addition than a turf sprint race or some other made up division.

if you are going to create a new division or series of prep races, that would be the category to add.

thats all I am saying.

like I originally typed, dont add any BC race.
take one away.
but we all know thats never going to happen.

Repent

[King Glorious]

Of the ideas I've heard, these are the ones I like the best:

I'd add an 8f race on dirt but it would be strictly for 3yo's. I'd add a 12f dirt race but it would be strictly for 4yo's and up. In addition to the new 12f race, I'd add a series of races through the year, maybe 6-8 of them at $500k each at 12f for 4yo's and older. Perhaps if there is a series of races with a bonus attatched to it, it would keep a few more of these horses around a little longer and also would create a market that would encourage breeders to breed for those kinds of races. As it stands now, u can't blame them for not wanting to breed any 12f type horses.

I'd also get rid of the Juvenile Fillies and make just one 2yo race and have that race be at 6f. I don't think 2yo's need to run beyond 6f. There would be no 2yo races at all beyond 6f. Then in January/Feb, the furthest they could go would be 7f....March/April, the furthest they could go would be 8f.....the Derby would be 9f, the Preakness 9.5f, and the Belmont 10f. The purpose of the Belmont used to be to determine which of the 3yo's could handle 12f and be able to compete with the older horses in the fall in the big races, several of which were 12f or longer. But now, since there are no 12f dirt races, the Belmont has been turned into one of America's most irrelevant races, save for when there is a TC on the line. That's sad.

I would not create a sprint race for females. The females have a very good record in the open Sprint as it is. Same for the Mile. If they were being outclassed in those races, maybe so. But Royal Heroine, Pine Tree Lane, Very Subtle, Miesque, Sonic Lady, Safely Kept, Meafara, Ski Paradise, Soviet Problem, Desert Stormer, Ridgewood Pearl, Sayyedati, Tuzla, Honest Lady, Xtra Heat, Six Perfections, and Gorella all say that the girls can run with the boys in those races. All of those females have either won or been in the money in the Sprint or Mile. If u take it a step further, u can add the names of All Along, Pebbles, Estrapade, Indian Skimmer, Sierra Roberta, Miss Alleged, Hatoof, and Borgia and make the case that there was really no need for the F/M Turf.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Name me one American juvenile turf horse. If you had to think for more than three seconds, there shouldn't be a juvenile turf race here.

Fernando Po

[Round Pen]

was just looking at the Churchill Condition Book(avalibale on line) At Fridays Card not to Bad there are 2 stakes carded that Day.

THe Cherekee Run For 3 and up Going 5F on the Turf for 250k and
The River City(Grade 3) For 3 And up 1/1/8th on the turf.

[pmayjr]

That's the thing. I'm convinced you could get similar to a Kentucky Oaks day type handle, with ESPN coverage if you put a couple of races on Friday. IThe handle and the ratings wouldn't be even close to Saturday, but that's not the worst thing either...

[SniperSB23]

I'm sure a lot will hate this idea but I think the best idea is to expand to 12 races and run them at two different tracks with staggered starts like the Sunshine Millions. You would then get 12 races on TV in 3 hours which is something that would be more marketable to the mainstream, especially those who get bored and change the channel after they watch a race and realize it is another half hour until the next one. You would never have to worry about a race like the FM Turf being at 11 furlongs because you would make sure one of the two tracks is capable of running a 10 furlong turf race. It would make inclusion of the dirt mile possible since at least one of the two tracks would be able to run a mile dirt race.

I'd go something along these lines:
Track 1
BC Juvenile (1 mile)
BC Turf Sprint
BC Sprint
BC Juvenile Turf (8.5 furlongs)
BC Distaff
BC Turf

Track 2
BC Juvenile Fillies (1 mile)
BC FM Sprint
BC FM Turf
BC Dirt Mile
BC Turf Mile
BC Classic

[blackthroatedwind]

I think they should just eliminate it all-together and then perhaps races during the year could go back to having some meaning. But, then again, racing really is only about one race, a career record is obviously meaningless.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think they should just eliminate it all-together and then perhaps races during the year could go back to having some meaning. But, then again, racing really is only about one race, a career record is obviously meaningless.

If they eliminated it do you really think we'd ever see Lava Man and Bernardini face off, or Henny Hughes and Bordonaro, or Aragorn and Gorella, or countless other matchups of east coast and west coast horses? Virtually no one would take the risk of shipping a top horse to the other coast without the reward of the Breeders' Cup. As many faults as the emphasis on the BC has, I think we are better off with it than without it.

[Scav]

Turf Sprint (because of the increased popularity of these races)

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If they eliminated it do you really think we'd ever see Lava Man and Bernardini face off, or Henny Hughes and Bordonaro, or Aragorn and Gorella, or countless other matchups of east coast and west coast horses? Virtually no one would take the risk of shipping a top horse to the other coast without the reward of the Breeders' Cup. As many faults as the emphasis on the BC has, I think we are better off with it than without it.

Nonsense, Sniper. Could I ask how old you are? I only ask that because in the Days before the BC people shipped all year long to face each other in grade one's to settle championships. Lemme tell ya, racng was full of matchups back then, the kind that met 2-3 -4 times a year rather than once. We sure wouldn't have had Alydar-Affirmed if the BC had been in place back then.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Nonsense, Sniper. Could I ask how old you are? I only ask that because in the Days before the BC people shipped all year long to face each other in grade one's to settle championships. Lemme tell ya, racng was full of matchups back then, the kind that met 2-3 -4 times a year rather than once. We sure wouldn't have had Alydar-Affirmed if the BC had been in place back then.

Alot less stakes races back then. You could have ran at Charlestown this weekend for 500k, and MOST ARLINGTON horses would beat those rats...There is too much money available to have these matchups now days. I don't fault connections one bit for shopping for races, because the cost to take care of ONE of these animals is astronomical. This sport needs an Alydar-Affirmed because it is dwindling

Originally Posted by Scav

Alot less stakes races back then. You could have ran at Charlestown this weekend for 500k, and MOST ARLINGTON horses would beat those rats...There is too much money available to have these matchups now days. I don't fault connections one bit for shopping for races, because the cost to take care of ONE of these animals is astronomical. This sport needs an Alydar-Affirmed because it is dwindling

Scav I don't understand what you are saying at all in regards to Charles Town. Both Laurel and Charles Town hosted lucrative races for MARYLAND AND WEST VIRGINIA BREDS this past weekend. As did calder for FLORIDA BREDS. Belmont hosts the NY bred showcase next weekend.
I assure you that anyone at Arlington who had a WV bred, Md bred, or Fla bred was there with their horse.
These races are restricted to state bred company and illustrating the 500 grand WV bred race as a race that any horse could have run in is false, those days don't draw away from the sport.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Nonsense, Sniper. Could I ask how old you are? I only ask that because in the Days before the BC people shipped all year long to face each other in grade one's to settle championships. Lemme tell ya, racng was full of matchups back then, the kind that met 2-3 -4 times a year rather than once. We sure wouldn't have had Alydar-Affirmed if the BC had been in place back then.

Come on now, we both know the game has changed a lot. If you suddenly eliminated the BC the game would not go back to how it was in the 1970's.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I'm not weighing in on the topic yet, but isn't it ironic that if the Breeders' Cup's main purpose was to make stallions, then why doesn't a dirt mile race exist even though some breeders -- perhaps many -- believe that a great miler makes a great stallion prospect?

GOOD QUESTION!!

why get rid of the juvie filly race?--that is directed at those who suggested it.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Come on now, we both know the game has changed a lot. If you suddenly eliminated the BC the game would not go back to how it was in the 1970's.

You'd be surprised.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Scav I don't understand what you are saying at all in regards to Charles Town. Both Laurel and Charles Town hosted lucrative races for MARYLAND AND WEST VIRGINIA BREDS this past weekend. As did calder for FLORIDA BREDS. Belmont hosts the NY bred showcase next weekend.
I assure you that anyone at Arlington who had a WV bred, Md bred, or Fla bred was there with their horse.
These races are restricted to state bred company and illustrating the 500 grand WV bred race as a race that any horse could have run in is false, those days don't draw away from the sport.

While you could have drawn the conclusion that is what I meant, it isnt what I meant. I KNOW that they were conditioned to state bred, but in no way should a WV bred that is a claiming 15k rat should be running for 500k. the point I was trying to make and should have just said it this.

There are too many tracks out there with too much money, if we want this sport to get to where it once was, we need to lower the amount of stakes races around the country. There are too many tracks, that are filtering their money to one specific day, and letting the rest of their days go to crap. EVERY TRACK is guilty of it.

Someone mentioned the idea of a racing league, which would be a great idea, absolutely great idea, but you have too many owners that think they have huge balls and it would never work. Horse Racing COULD get NFL type hoopla and publicity, but it is marketed all wrong and set up all wrong.

There are two things that I wish I could take over and turn into goldmines, NCAA Football and Horse racing. If I could set up a 16 team playoff for the NCAA, it would be bigger then the March Madness, there is just as much passion in college football as in College basketball, it is just set up wrong (look at Florida and Auburn for example)...and if I could create a horse racing league, I could turn it into the NFL as far as attention.

Look at what the NFL has done, MILLIONS of people sit in front of the TV for 7 hours a day on Sundays. With what people's attention span are now days, that is unheard of

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think they should just eliminate it all-together and then perhaps races during the year could go back to having some meaning. But, then again, racing really is only about one race, a career record is obviously meaningless.

excellent idea...this thing has turned into a super bowl type day, which make all races leading up to it meaningless. too much emphasis on one day, one race, too little attention paid to the rest of the year. why give out year awards if they don't care what a horse did all year??
also, i still can't get over them referring to the arc as a prep!! the ARC? relegated to prep status...that's ludicrous!

the breeders would be better off continuing their breeders incentives throughout the year, such as added purses like they have right now, give the races from years beginning to years end some meaning, not just those that occur on one day.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Scav

While you could have drawn the conclusion that is what I meant, it isnt what I meant. I KNOW that they were conditioned to state bred, but in no way should a WV bred that is a claiming 15k rat should be running for 500k. the point I was trying to make and should have just said it this.

There are too many tracks out there with too much money, if we want this sport to get to where it once was, we need to lower the amount of stakes races around the country. There are too many tracks, that are filtering their money to one specific day, and letting the rest of their days go to crap. EVERY TRACK is guilty of it.

Someone mentioned the idea of a racing league, which would be a great idea, absolutely great idea, but you have too many owners that think they have huge balls and it would never work. Horse Racing COULD get NFL type hoopla and publicity, but it is marketed all wrong and set up all wrong.

There are two things that I wish I could take over and turn into goldmines, NCAA Football and Horse racing. If I could set up a 16 team playoff for the NCAA, it would be bigger then the March Madness, there is just as much passion in college football as in College basketball, it is just set up wrong (look at Florida and Auburn for example)...and if I could create a horse racing league, I could turn it into the NFL as far as attention.

Look at what the NFL has done, MILLIONS of people sit in front of the TV for 7 hours a day on Sundays. With what people's attention span are now days, that is unheard of

since states have managed to get slots, they have more money to throw at what they want to support--state breds... so i have no problem with them paying money to them, rat or not. however, i think grading of races needs to be far more difficult. too many graded stakes out there. only the very best, most exclusive and meaningful races should be gr 1's.

Originally Posted by Scav

While you could have drawn the conclusion that is what I meant, it isnt what I meant. I KNOW that they were conditioned to state bred, but in no way should a WV bred that is a claiming 15k rat should be running for 500k. the point I was trying to make and should have just said it this.

There are too many tracks out there with too much money, if we want this sport to get to where it once was, we need to lower the amount of stakes races around the country. There are too many tracks, that are filtering their money to one specific day, and letting the rest of their days go to crap. EVERY TRACK is guilty of it.

Someone mentioned the idea of a racing league, which would be a great idea, absolutely great idea, but you have too many owners that think they have huge balls and it would never work. Horse Racing COULD get NFL type hoopla and publicity, but it is marketed all wrong and set up all wrong.

There are two things that I wish I could take over and turn into goldmines, NCAA Football and Horse racing. If I could set up a 16 team playoff for the NCAA, it would be bigger then the March Madness, there is just as much passion in college football as in College basketball, it is just set up wrong (look at Florida and Auburn for example)...and if I could create a horse racing league, I could turn it into the NFL as far as attention.

Look at what the NFL has done, MILLIONS of people sit in front of the TV for 7 hours a day on Sundays. With what people's attention span are now days, that is unheard of

Scav,
I think its great that those days exist and have to respectfully disagree. Who is anyone to say that lower level trainers and owners and breeders who concentrate on state breds shouldn't have their day in the sun to try and make a score?
The purpose of these days is to promote breeding programs in states. When you toss out a bundle of cash to be given away on a given day, it gives people hope and ambition.
Starting a breeding farm requires tremendous capital and work and risk. If it weren't for these big pursed state bred showcase days, well who would bother? The Kentucky farms have a lotta cash behind them and will always putperform their fledgling rivals in the long run.
How do we get new blood in the sport if state bred breeding programs aren't instituted?
Maybe you find it terrible that WV breds can run for a lotta money one night, but all those trainers, owners and breeders who work their asses off all year long don't do it because they make a lot of money or have Derby or Breeders Cup dreams. These are hardworking folks who work under less than stellar conditions and who dream of making ends meet and pursuing what they love, not of getting rich and getting roses placed on their horses.
What exactly is the matter with the "have nots" getting a day to race for big money and a state trying to promote an industry within their confines that brings millions of dollars in state revenue and commerce and provides jobs for thousands of people? How does that adversely affect racing?

Originally Posted by Danzig188

since states have managed to get slots, they have more money to throw at what they want to support--state breds... so i have no problem with them paying money to them, rat or not. however, i think grading of races needs to be far more difficult. too many graded stakes out there. only the very best, most exclusive and meaningful races should be gr 1's.

Scav there is a committee that downgrades and upgrades which stakes are graded each year.
What you propose would suck the industry down the tubes.
ELiminating stakes races means eliminating purse money and residual value. People can't make money racing for the most part, they make it on the back end with stallions and broodmares.
What you propose would kill the sport in one year. haveing fewer stakes races generally would lead to only those who are already rich and powerful winning the stakes races, with even fewer scraps to the "have nots". Its not gonna hurt Pletcher and his owners, or the Sheikhs, but it sure as hell would hurt the lower echelon folks.
No stakes race is easy, trust me. Try managing a horse and looking for an "easy spot" and you will find there is no such thing.
Proposiing a racing world where only the highest end breeders, owners, and trainers have even MORE of an advantage would cause: Trainers looking at the want ads for other lines of work, breeders other than the superwealthy to hang out for sale signs at record rates, and owners who arent zillionaires divesting their horses and taking up golf.