Is American Pharoah Baffert's best horse?

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by Benny

I always thought that Baffert undertrained PG for the derby sso he'd be fresherr for the other 2 legs, just athought as i saw him romp in the Belmont that year.I'dd like to ask him that.

I can't remember how PG trained up to the Derby. Pretty sure those were the days before we had "The Works" show and everyone was focusing on that. I do remember the track that day as being extremely fast and Stevens had him chasing the suicide pace while wide throughout. They chose the wrong day to take him out of his preferred running style..

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by ghartman02

Silver Charm was a champion, he won The Derby and Preakness and then Dubai, just short in the Classic and Belmont. Real Quiet, a nose shy of a Triple Crown, Ok at 4 but we'll never know. Point Given was a beast. I'll never understand what happened Derby Day, but The Preakness, Belmont, and Travers were great. It's still incomplete on American Pharoah, but at this juncture, I think he's not only Bob's best, but definitely in the elite zone. Horses come at him in every race and he just puts it in another gear. Secretariat followed up the Triple Crown with great wins especially in the Marlboro, and Man o War or Lexington (always forget which one). Neither Slew nor Affirmed won in their Triple Crown won what I would term the Grand Slam of it's day, The Jockey Club Gold Cup (at 1 1/2 Miles). So if AP would win the BC Classic, we're in new territory!

Gary Stevens is what happened to Point Given in the Derby....that's how to rush him up into suicidal fractions there Gary. He probaly felt like punching himself in the face after that ride.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

I can't remember how PG trained up to the Derby. Pretty sure those were the days before we had "The Works" show and everyone was focusing on that. I do remember the track that day as being extremely fast and Stevens had him chasing the suicide pace while wide throughout. They chose the wrong day to take him out of his preferred running style..

The pace was just way to hot to be anywhere close. That said, Congaree was ahead of PG early and finished better. Just wasn't his day.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Benny

I always thought that Baffert undertrained PG for the derby sso he'd be fresherr for the other 2 legs, just athought as i saw him romp in the Belmont that year.I'dd like to ask him that.

I remember reading an interview with Baffert where he said that was indeed his mistake- he trained PG for the Triple Crown, rather than for the Derby.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Benny

I always thought that Baffert undertrained PG for the derby sso he'd be fresherr for the other 2 legs, just athought as i saw him romp in the Belmont that year.I'dd like to ask him that.

Just ask The Don to ask Baffert that, he has made it clear that he has the inside track on Baffert's ear.

[Seattleallstar]

Point Given is my favorite horse, and imo was visually the more impressive horse. His Belmont was the best we have seen in in this century, with the time and speed figure to back it up. In the Travers he won easily, but we knew that he had a extra gear or two left in him which we hadn't seen and regrettably we never got to see more

As for what happened in the Derby,with PG. Stevens and Baffert were already thinking TC before winning the Derby. Stevens admitted that the Derby in his mind would be a foregone conclusion, he was looking to break Secretariat's time. Like what was also posted Baffert was training for TC and looked past the Derby

AP is a good horse and also visually impressive, but times and figures assigned have been average times for the races won by horses in years past. Nothing really stands out other than he won the TC. I'm not as confident in AP that he has extra gears left we have not seen. But time will well, hopefully.

Right now for me it is

PG, SC, AP, RQ

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Gary Stevens is what happened to Point Given in the Derby....that's how to rush him up into suicidal fractions there Gary. He probaly felt like punching himself in the face after that ride.

The horse didn't have it that day. It is true that it was a suicidal pace. They went the half in :44 4/5. Point Given was laying 6th and he was about 6 lengths behind or so. Was this closer than he should have been? Yes, it was. He should have probably been laying more like 12-14 lengths back. He ended up getting beat by about 13 lengths. Congaree was laying 4th and was much closer to the pace than Point Given. Congaree ended up running 2nd and he beat PG by about 8 lengths.

I don't know how you could possible say PG was best that day. If he ended up losing the race by only 3-4 lengths, then you could make a good argument that he might have been best that day. But when a horse loses by 13 lengths and is losing ground to horses who were in front of him and getting passed by horses that were behind him, I don't know how you can think that the ride cost him the race.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Benny

I always thought that Baffert undertrained PG for the derby sso he'd be fresherr for the other 2 legs, just athought as i saw him romp in the Belmont that year.I'dd like to ask him that.

I've asked him on radio. Baffert said he didn't want to make excuses at the time, but Point Given was nursing a hoof and couldn't be leaned on pre-Derby... similar to how he came into Haskell very short, but won anyway. Frankel had the same kind of issue to deal with Empire Maker pre-Derby.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The horse didn't have it that day. It is true that it was a suicidal pace. They went the half in :44 4/5. Point Given was laying 6th and he was about 6 lengths behind or so. Was this closer than he should have been? Yes, it was. He should have probably been laying more like 12-14 lengths back. He ended up getting beat by about 13 lengths. Congaree was laying 4th and was much closer to the pace than Point Given. Congaree ended up running 2nd and he beat PG by about 8 lengths.

I don't know how you could possible say PG was best that day. If he ended up losing the race by only 3-4 lengths, then you could make a good argument that he might have been best that day. But when a horse loses by 13 lengths and is losing ground to horses who were in front of him and getting passed by horses that were behind him, I don't know how you can think that the ride cost him the race.

How far he got beat is not relevant. He blew it with that ridiculous middle move into scorching 6 furlongs.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

How far he got beat is not relevant. He blew it with that ridiculous middle move into scorching 6 furlongs.

Ok, if you say so. I can guarantee you that Baffert doesn't think that ride cost him the race.

A good example of a horse whose move was totally mistimed was Normandy Invasion in 2013. A move like that can cost a horse 2-3 lengths. It's not going to cost him 12 or 13 lengths. I would say the same for Point Given. If you think that type of ride can cost a horse 13 lengths, then you must have 10,000 horses on your watch list. There are tons of horses who get beat by 15 lengths every day who didn't get perfect rides. That doesn't mean they should have won. I think PG's sore hoof had a lot more to do with his poor performance than the ride. I think that hoof was actually still probably bothering him at least a little bit in the Preakness. He was on his wrong lead all the way down the stretch in the Preakness until about 40 yards from the wire.

[alysheba4]

Seems that BB thinks AP is best.