Graded Stakes and Polytrack

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i don't feel it's a gr 1 because of its prep status. but it's retained it's grading due to successes achieved since the bluegrass, in the derby as well as other top races. if lesser horses start showing up while the top horses go elsewhere, it will lose it's status.

As well as it should. But if you get top turfers in the race instead of top dirt horses then it shouldnt lose its Grade I status. If you get a bunch of maiden and claiming horses in the race then the Grade I status should be loss. I dont think the field quality will diminish all that much.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by repent

was wondering the other day.
I think the graded stakes committee will have to totally reavaluate graded stakes at KEE and Holywood for their main track races.

there is no way the Toyota Blue Grass stakes can be considered a Grade 1 KY Derby prep anymore.
its the last place to prepare a 3YO for Churchill Downs on the first saturday of May.
and the Blue Grass winner was something impressive to put on a sire's resume.
now, who cares?
unless you want a polytrack horse, who really cares to breed to a Blue Grass winner.

these races really hold no importance anymore.
if I had to guess, I would think that Ball Four has to be the early favorite to win next year's Holywood Gold Cup.
he obviously likes that crappy surface they just installed.

just look at the Spinster.
was won by a really mediocre turf horse.
and thats supposed to be one of the most imortant races of the entire year in the Distaff division.
anyone have any thoughts?



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I see your point, and don't disagree, but in the case of the Blue Grass is there any difference than before? I've made a point over the last 10 years to simply draw a line through that race going into the Derby. The KEE surface was such a joke it was impossible to determine any future performance from it. For example- if you crossed out the Blue Grass this year (a SUPER fluky race), Bluegrass Cat was a legit contender to hit the board at 35-1 based on his body of work prior to that.

[repent]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I see what you are saying but you cannot Grade races as preps to other Graded races. That doesn't make sense. You have to seperate the thought pattern that the Blue Grass is a Grade I only because it is considered a prep to the Derby. A race is Graded based on the field it gets. If you get the top 3 year old turf runners in the country to run in the Blue Grass should be graded less because these horses arent going to the Derby? That doesnt make sense.

no,
but I doubt you get top 3YO turf horses to show.
all I am saying is that when the fields for certain KEE and Holypark races start to suffer, the committee makes the approprate changes.


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Originally Posted by repent

well,
Im not tryng to make any point concerning the handicapping of polytrack.
evey person is free to wager or not wager on polytrack racetracks.

my only point is that I hope the committee does look at what this crap has done to the quality of the fields on an individual basis and makes the appropriate downgrades.

I think there will be breeding implications as well.


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The quality of fields is crap??? Go ahead and explain this to me. Show me a field in any Graded race so far that has been run on PolyTrack at Keeneland that had a crap field.

The breeding industry will flourish. Imagine being able to have a horse that can run on dirt, turf and poly. I think you are going to have more bidding for top dirt horses because they will be in demand because people will want that type of horse. Again breeding is this..breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by repent

well,
Im not tryng to make any point concerning the handicapping of polytrack.
evey person is free to wager or not wager on polytrack racetracks.

my only point is that I hope the committee does look at what this crap has done to the quality of the fields on an individual basis and makes the appropriate downgrades.

I think there will be breeding implications as well.


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Like the stuff or not (i'm still undecided), the fields at Keeneland this weekend were a TON better than those at Belmont... what does that say about my home track (which presumably will not be going to poly in the forseeable future?)

[SniperSB23]

I just don't get it. It isn't that difficult a surface to cap. Turf horses and dirt horses like it and it is tough to win on the front, that is about all you need to know to cap it. The top three in the Lane's End were the three best horses in the race. In the Perryville the horse that Baffert had been high on all year finally had his coming out party, I'd be shocked if he returns to dirt and isn't successful. Three of the four best coming in finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th with the other being Latent Heat who kicks butt in easy allowances but can't run a lick when he enters a stakes race and is actually challenged. The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly and Happy Ticket would have had second if she wasn't cutoff in the stretch. Spun Sugar is the closest to a top level stakes horse not taking to poly but even her figures are all over the place so you never know what Spun Sugar will show up. She'll probably come back and win the Distaff just cause that is the way she is. The Alcibiades ran much more to form than the Frizette did. Any other stakes I am forgetting? Where are all the horses that are really good on dirt and not on polytrack?

To me capping the poly isn't the hard part. The hard part is figuring which of these horses that have only run on poly, like Her Majesty, are dirt horses and which are turf horses.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I just don't get it. It isn't that difficult a surface to cap. Turf horses and dirt horses like it and it is tough to win on the front, that is about all you need to know to cap it. The top three in the Lane's End were the three best horses in the race. In the Perryville the horse that Baffert had been high on all year finally had his coming out party, I'd be shocked if he returns to dirt and isn't successful. Three of the four best coming in finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th with the other being Latent Heat who kicks butt in easy allowances but can't run a lick when he enters a stakes race and is actually challenged. The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly and Happy Ticket would have had second if she wasn't cutoff in the stretch. Spun Sugar is the closest to a top level stakes horse not taking to poly but even her figures are all over the place so you never know what Spun Sugar will show up. She'll probably come back and win the Distaff just cause that is the way she is. The Alcibiades ran much more to form than the Frizette did. Any other stakes I am forgetting? Where are all the horses that are really good on dirt and not on polytrack?

To me capping the poly isn't the hard part. The hard part is figuring which of these horses that have only run on poly, like Her Majesty, are dirt horses and which are turf horses.

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

[repent]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

The quality of fields is crap??? Go ahead and explain this to me. Show me a field in any Graded race so far that has been run on PolyTrack at Keeneland that had a crap field.

The breeding industry will flourish. Imagine being able to have a horse that can run on dirt, turf and poly. I think you are going to have more bidding for top dirt horses because they will be in demand because people will want that type of horse. Again breeding is this..breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

you are missing my point.
Im not saying they are crap.
Im projecting that they will be crap in the future.
I think the reversal of dirt form that we have seen will result in fields not comprised of top dirt horses.
when that happens, I hope they take the appropriate action.

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[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

What the hell are you talking about and what do you disagree with? I posted on here before the Lane's End that Great Hunter was a better horse than Circular Quay. You know that. How is that redboarding?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

See, this is the problem with this place. You got tons good to say oracle but instead decide to rip someone for no good reason... how exactly is this redboarding? he's stating his opinion on the stuff, i don't see anywhere that indicates gloating or boasting.

Too many know-it-alls at this joint.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

What the hell are you talking about and what do you disagree with? I posted on here before the Lane's End that Great Hunter was a better horse than Circular Quay. You know that. How is that redboarding?

The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly? LOL!!!!
And lets see if Great Hunter is better than CQ in the BC.
I promise to remind you daily after he CQ feeds GH his nuts for lunch.

Originally Posted by philcski

See, this is the problem with this place. You got tons good to say oracle but instead decide to rip someone for no good reason... how exactly is this redboarding? he's stating his opinion on the stuff, i don't see anywhere that indicates gloating or boasting.

Too many know-it-alls at this joint.

Any time you wanna match me in a knowledge fest you just have at it.
Any subject, any time, any place. I'll mulch you into dust.
And you can bring any ten friends you want with you.

[repent]

Originally Posted by philcski

Like the stuff or not (i'm still undecided), the fields at Keeneland this weekend were a TON better than those at Belmont... what does that say about my home track (which presumably will not be going to poly in the forseeable future?)

yes,
but I think the results of those races are showing us that the stuff is so different than dirt that it will result in a lack of top dirt horses in those same races in the future.
When that happens, I hope the appropriate action is taken.
I feel like a broken record here.
Im not commenting on the handicapping of polytrack or anything else.
Im just saying that when top horses stop running in CERTAIN polytrack stakes races, that the graded stakes committee take action.

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[philcski]

Originally Posted by repent

yes,
but I think the results of those races are showing us that the stuff is so different than dirt that it will result in a lack of top dirt horses in those same races in the future.
When that happens, I hope the appropriate action is taken.
I feel like a broken record here.
Im not commenting on the handicapping of polytrack or anything else.
Im just saying that when top horses stop running in CERTAIN polytrack stakes races, that the graded stakes committee take action.

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Fair enough... and i'm equally concerned about that. They probably won't though as the gradings protect their own interest, you know what i mean?

[repent]

it was not my original point,
but I do have a question.

when stakes do change surface, dont they generally get downgraded.
was this not the case with the Laurel Futurity recently?
or am I not remembering correctly?


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[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly? LOL!!!!
And lets see if Great Hunter is better than CQ in the BC.
I promise to remind you daily after he CQ feeds GH his nuts for lunch.

Here you go, I picked Asi Siempre before the race was run:

http://www.thoroughbrednet.us/discus...pic=9372&st=20

Yes, she is a very good turf filly.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Any time you wanna match me in a knowledge fest you just have at it.
Any subject, any time, any place. I'll mulch you into dust.
And you can bring any ten friends you want with you.

I have no idea if you're joking or not, but my point exactly...

[repent]

Originally Posted by philcski

Fair enough... and i'm equally concerned about that. They probably won't though as the gradings protect their own interest, you know what i mean?

yeah,
I get you.
fair enough.

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[repent]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Here you go, I picked Asi Siempre before the race was run:

http://www.thoroughbrednet.us/discus...pic=9372&st=20

Yes, she is a very good turf filly.

a very good turf filly?
I guess in the general sense in that anyone would love to own her.
but she is not Wait A While.
hell, she is not even Karens Caper or Pommes Frittes.

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[repent]

ok,
Im out of here guys.
at least I started a thread that generated some response unlike my failed Los Al threads over in the Non Thoroughbred section of the forum.

later guys.


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