The Graveyard of Champions Claims Another

[asudevil]

Perfectly stated.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by DonGuido

Problem? AP is not "normal". Wrong on both accounts but no biggie.

So what was I wrong about?? Was stating it was his fastest 2nd half mile split in any route race he's run wrong?? OF course it wasn't wrong. It was in actuality 100 percent correct. We can argue forever about whether it harms a horse's route staying power to run a very quick first half and much slower 2nd half as compared to a leisurely first half and a lightning 2nd half as happened yesterday.

Why don't you tell me Why I am wrong in what I stated instead of just stating it. I gave a detailed explanation on why I thought you were wrong. The splits are actually listed. They exist. By my stating him running a 46.7 2nd half mile was something he had never done before is not wrong as it is actually printed on paper what they ran. It is my opinion that 2nd half mile split is what did him in yesterday just as I believe Smarty Jones' 46.7 2nd half mile split in the Belmont Stakes is what did him in that day.

And we can also argue about Beyer's all day long as well about whether they mean anything or not, but those also state he ran the exact same speed that he ran in the Ark Derby, Ky Derby, and Belmont Stakes for the entire race.

[ADJMK]

I don't know what any of you are talking about. My power got knocked out yesterday so I missed the race. From what I read in my morning paper what happened is that Espinoza should have never let Keen Ice pass him in the turn and then try to catch him. That has to be right? They would never write a story without first watching the race ?

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2015/0...s-to-keen-ice/

[ADJMK]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It would be interesting to know what exactly was Lezcano's game plan with Frosted. Was he simply targeting American Pharoah or was he trying to make the lead (perhaps thinking AP would sit just off the frontrunner ala the AK Derby, KY Derby, and Haskell)?

From a running style standpoint, Frosted is fairly versatile. He showed solid early speed in Florida and in his maiden breaker at 2. In the Wood, he seemed rejuvenated with an off-the-pace style (although I believe he also had corrective throat surgery at the same time). In the Derby, he came from well out of it and closed stoutly, yet ultimately made no impression on the top two home. In the Belmont, he stalked and let American Pharoah dictate the running, then made a strong move at him (while having to steady slightly on the far turn) in the stretch, but could not get even within a length of him. So unless his connections were resigned to running for second money, sending him to the lead made a lot of sense. It was the only tool they had yet to use to reverse form on AP.

Of course, it still didn't work. But what it did do was force Espinoza to ride the race as if it were 9f and not 10f. As Baffert himself said, AP won the Kentucky Derby "on guts" and "got away with it". Many people suggested, despite winning the Derby, that AP had come back down to earth. The rest of the Triple Crown, which was practically scripted for AP's ascension (a torrential downpour minutes before the Preakness, a paceless Belmont) brushed away all those nagging concerns about AP and distance limitations. The facile manner of the subsequent Haskell further solidified the mantle of invincibility bestowed on this horse. But in the end, like many a brilliant racehorse, AP will always be vulnerable at the classic distances, especially when there is an honest pace scenario.

Finally got to watch the race and you summed it up perfectly.

[GenuineRisk]

NYTimes article- Baffert's preference is to train up to Breeders' Cup. Joe Drape's writing can make me crazy sometimes, but this is a nice piece.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/sp...tion.html?_r=0

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

NYTimes article- Baffert's preference is to train up to Breeders' Cup. Joe Drape's writing can make me crazy sometimes, but this is a nice piece.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/sp...tion.html?_r=0

I figured that would be Baffert's take. I didn't think he'd shy away from doing that at all, esp. because it didn't seem like they were too excited about the timing of the other options, esp. ones the facing elders, pre-Classic. I wouldn't doubt they've got Beholder in the back of their mind right now.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

... So unless his connections were resigned to running for second money, sending [Frosted] to the lead made a lot of sense. It was the only tool they had yet to use to reverse form on AP.

According to Bloodhorse, it was not Kiaran McLaughlin's intention at all: "Frosted's trainer Kiaran McLaughlin said he didn't expect for his colt to press American Pharoah."

see http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...m-team-pharoah

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

According to Bloodhorse, it was not Kiaran McLaughlin's intention at all: "Frosted's trainer Kiaran McLaughlin said he didn't expect for his colt to press American Pharoah."

see http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...m-team-pharoah

Yeah, I read that as well. I should have said it was Lezcano's call, not "the connections". Actually, in retrospect, given the lack of early speed on paper, Frosted was just as likely as any to be sitting second regardless of McLaughlin's expectations.

[richard burch]

I say rest him and train up to the BC Classic if he does anything else this year at all.


spot on!

rest those legs.....no problem betting him in the B.C.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

I figured that would be Baffert's take. I didn't think he'd shy away from doing that at all, esp. because it didn't seem like they were too excited about the timing of the other options, esp. ones the facing elders, pre-Classic. I wouldn't doubt they've got Beholder in the back of their mind right now.

I thought it funny that right after the race Zayat was, "Maybe we should retire him. I think we should retire him," and the next day Baffert was just, "Yeah, we'll train him up to the Classic."

[MaTH716]

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints.
and keen ice and his jock ran a perfect race.

thing is, i thought ap ran a great race. except for not being able to hang on that is.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I thought it funny that right after the race Zayat was, "Maybe we should retire him. I think we should retire him," and the next day Baffert was just, "Yeah, we'll train him up to the Classic."

i really think baffert wanted to skip the travers. it was one too many, and i think he knew that.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

i don't want to kill anyone.
if he rode him to win, that's what he should have done. if he didn't, that's what people would take issue with.
frosteds trainer implied he'd have settled better had he had his regular jock-and that's no one's fault that he didn't.

[jms62]

My 2 cents. At that point of the day the track was extremely favorable to the front end. I can see where Lezcano would think if he let AP get the jump the game was over for him. I can also see where Espinoza saw the same thing and felt the only way he could lose is let Frosted barrel ahead on the lead and let the track carry him. Hence a classic duel ensued. If Pharoh holds on we are talking about an incredible effort for the ages that he gets headed but courageously battles back to win. No one did anything wrong in my opinion. It was a classic horse race and that is why they run em cause the 1/5 favorite can get beat.

One negative I take away is the constant whining from Bafferts camp. It seems like he thinks it is his divine right to have his super horses be uncontested for the lead. Think back to the whining with Game On Dude after his losses.

[JimmyEllis]

Lezcano didn't do anything wrong. Espinosa did have the option of stalking. Why the focus on Lezcano rather than Espinosa? Johnny V wins on AP. Espinosa not only let an inferior horse, that did essentially ZERO running, win a coveted race but he also gutted his horse in the process. Did he actually think that Frosted would beat him (unlikely) or was he more concerned with winning by open lengths - without regard to the cost to the horse?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

My 2 cents. At that point of the day the track was extremely favorable to the front end. I can see where Lezcano would think if he let AP get the jump the game was over for him. I can also see where Espinoza saw the same thing and felt the only way he could lose is let Frosted barrel ahead on the lead and let the track carry him. Hence a classic duel ensued. If Pharoh holds on we are talking about an incredible effort for the ages that he gets headed but courageously battles back to win. No one did anything wrong in my opinion. It was a classic horse race and that is why they run em cause the 1/5 favorite can get beat.

One negative I take away is the constant whining from Bafferts camp. It seems like he thinks it is his divine right to have his super horses be uncontested for the lead. Think back to the whining with Game On Dude after his losses.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by JimmyEllis

Lezcano didn't do anything wrong. Espinosa did have the option of stalking. Why the focus on Lezcano rather than Espinosa? Johnny V wins on AP. Espinosa not only let an inferior horse, that did essentially ZERO running, win a coveted race but he also gutted his horse in the process. Did he actually think that Frosted would beat him (unlikely) or was he more concerned with winning by open lengths - without regard to the cost to the horse?

So Espinoza erred by using his horse's best weapon, his speed? Not sure I'm understanding this point at all.

American Pharoah was the lone speed on paper, he got the lead, went a moderate half-mile, was engaged and was beaten. He ran a fine race, one that was on par with the rest that he had run.

[Travis Stone]

When did it become the Graveyard of Champions? It was always "Graveyard of Favorites."