Dubbya continues to amaze

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by pgardn

GR with all due respect I am not frighteningly intelligent. I am curious.

Secondly, you may be right about the info. But I believe given what I have read that GW really did believe the Iraqi's had WMD's. I dont think he tried to cook it up. At that time, the Iraqi's would not let the UN do the work they were asked to do. DTS: The inspectors were constantly harassed, misled, lied ot, time after time. People forget that they were being extremely uncooperative. What were we supposed to think? I talked to many people that keep up intensively with this stuff, and not one of them said it is very clear Iraq does not have WMD's. The question for them was do we really need to go in and get them, how far along are they... they cant have nuclear weapons (we think) but the biological potential scared them to death. Remember all the powders and inspections in Congress and elsewhere? And biological weapons do not take the large facilities that nukes take. We as a country were very scared. I remember that clearly. So the decision was made.

Now, no matter what the Bush administration says, we have a Civil War. But there are some very interesting things that have happened. So many Iraqi's are killing each other at this point, that the "war lords" of all of these different factions are now actually making contact with US representatives asking them to stay. The foreign groups (outside Iraq) are not. In fact one of the guys that we had a hit out on has contacted US representatives for negotiations. Sad to say, but so many innocent people on all sides of this very complex situation are dying and its starting to hurt. My feeling is that there is the possibility they may tire of having innocent relatives butchered. I think there is still a chance some sort of arrangement can be made. The parties that were thriving with the chaos, are not anymore. Shiites are even splitting and fighting each other. It is a Civil War. And we have to give it a chance to die. There are too many indicators, however small, that all these factions are getting tired of having their own slaughtered. Its no longer just pot shot civilians, these violent groups are now feeling the real sting.

I just hate seeing Americans die for this. But we caused this mess by getting rid of the tyrant that caged them, executed innocent people to keep order. Huge lessons have been learned by all. The hard way.

Bring back Will Ferrell!

[timmgirvan]

Lets see: we say SH has WMD...we wait for the useless and often complicit UN to allow us to go look for then,AFTER 8 MONTHS, and Damn if those RASCALLY Bush warmongers didn't lie to us again! YOU could move MONTANA in 8 months,let alone WMD's! It's really that clear.

[Downthestretch55]

"It is a Civil War. And we have to give it a chance to die. There are too many indicators, however small, that all these factions are getting tired of having their own slaughtered. Its no longer just pot shot civilians, these violent groups are now feeling the real sting.

I just hate seeing Americans die for this. But we caused this mess by getting rid of the tyrant that caged them, executed innocent people to keep order. Huge lessons have been learned by all. The hard way."

Pgardn,
I agree. It got tired a long while ago. I also hate seeing Americans die for this. Over 2800 and counting. The wounded? Over 11,000. (Ours).
These are just kids that wanted to serve our country and do their duty.
Most of the "middle class" in Iraq (1.4 million) are running for the borders to seek sanctuary somewhere else. So, even when it's over, hopefully someday soon, there will be few dentists, teachers, business owners. They're running for their lives. Innocent victims of insanity??? Yup...but not Saddam's.
Huge lessons...need to be relearned for those that were ignorant regarding prior lessons.
Is there any question as to why the rest of the Earth's nations no longer believe in our "good intentions"?
Our actions have spoken louder than our words.
Such a shame.
Guess that's what we get for allowing madmen to run it for us. It reminds me of the Nixon years...or dare I say...1933 Germany.
Very sad. Very.
I anquish for all the families, not only the American ones, that have paid a high price for believing in this game that offers no "do overs".
We bought it. We own it.
God help us all.

[skippy3481]

Dts just to clarify you would rather have saddam still running things then us removing him right?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by skippy3481

Dts just to clarify you would rather have saddam still running things then us removing him right?

Skippy,
We could have waited. That said, it doesn't address the "now".

Now, I know I'll get bashed big time for posting this link, but please do me a favor...read it first, bash me later.


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1022-26.htm

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

"It is a Civil War. And we have to give it a chance to die. There are too many indicators, however small, that all these factions are getting tired of having their own slaughtered. Its no longer just pot shot civilians, these violent groups are now feeling the real sting.

I just hate seeing Americans die for this. But we caused this mess by getting rid of the tyrant that caged them, executed innocent people to keep order. Huge lessons have been learned by all. The hard way."

Pgardn,
I agree. It got tired a long while ago. I also hate seeing Americans die for this. Over 2800 and counting. The wounded? Over 11,000. (Ours).
These are just kids that wanted to serve our country and do their duty.
Most of the "middle class" in Iraq (1.4 million) are running for the borders to seek sanctuary somewhere else. So, even when it's over, hopefully someday soon, there will be few dentists, teachers, business owners. They're running for their lives. Innocent victims of insanity??? Yup...but not Saddam's.
Huge lessons...need to be relearned for those that were ignorant regarding prior lessons.
Is there any question as to why the rest of the Earth's nations no longer believe in our "good intentions"?
Our actions have spoken louder than our words.
Such a shame.
Guess that's what we get for allowing madmen to run it for us. It reminds me of the Nixon years...or dare I say...1933 Germany.
Very sad. Very.
I anquish for all the families, not only the American ones, that have paid a high price for believing in this game that offers no "do overs".
We bought it. We own it.
God help us all.

Well said.

I fear nothing will change until the lobbyists are booted out of Washington.

Is there any question as to why the rest of the Earth's nations no longer believe in our "good intentions"?


DTS. The intentions were to protect ourselves. I really believe this. The fear after 9/11 was palatable. We forget the mindset at the time. We were scared to death that we would be attacked with biological weapons, airplanes, trains, automobiles. Dont you remember being checked at any event that involved a large number of people. Tiny Retama Park was patting people down. We cannot just look at the situation at the present if we hope to learn. You have to remember the current mood at the time the decisions were made.

I dont really dont believe France, Germany, Russia, China, North Korea care that much about our National Security. We are the big dog. They have their own problems. They dont see us as being a target. Just as they dont see Israel's retaliation when its citizens get rocketed almost everyday from Gaza. Maybe they did not understand the panic in this country since they have experienced years of terrorism (except China). Maybe they thought we overreacted to having two jets slam into two icons of our country killing 3000 people (could have been a lot more) in an instant.

[timmgirvan]

BTW...President Lincoln suspended 'habeus corpus' and Bush should do the same! I don't hear any Liberals berating Lincoln!! Which means,incidentally that Presidential precedent had been set. So much for Bush being a cowboy!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Is there any question as to why the rest of the Earth's nations no longer believe in our "good intentions"?


DTS. The intentions were to protect ourselves. I really believe this. The fear after 9/11 was palatable. We forget the mindset at the time. We were scared to death that we would be attacked with biological weapons, airplanes, trains, automobiles. Dont you remember being checked at any event that involved a large number of people. Tiny Retama Park was patting people down. We cannot just look at the situation at the present if we hope to learn. You have to remember the current mood at the time the decisions were made.

I dont really dont believe France, Germany, Russia, China, North Korea care that much about our National Security. We are the big dog. They have their own problems. They dont see us as being a target. Just as they dont see Israel's retaliation when its citizens get rocketed almost everyday from Gaza. Maybe they did not understand the panic in this country since they have experienced years of terrorism (except China). Maybe they thought we overreacted to having two jets slam into two icons of our country killing 3000 people (could have been a lot more) in an instant.

Pgardn.
It's the same exact tactics. Same thing. Different "war", but exactly the same buttons to push.
I sat in traffic for four hours on the NJ turnpike because an "orange alert" had been issued. 100+ degrees for all that time for a bogus attempt to scare us.
It's the same kind of "thinking" that claims they'll be coming here, despite the fact that they don't own a navy nor an air force.
Can't you see that we are being played?
Let's remember the honest words..."We have nothing to fear but fear itself!"
Have you noticed how many here have bashed me without bothering to read the articles I've posted? I'm still waiting for anything that's disputable to be brought forth. Other than that, this remains what it is...horse s-it.
I'm not afraid of it in the least. I wear barn boots all the time and hose them off when the day is done. There's nothing to be afraid of...
especially when speaking truth.
Here's a final thought. I don't need any protection when I'm near the bee hives, unless I go over and take the top off of their hive and stir them up.

Read the articles I've put up. Genuine Risk's "Rolling Stone" article too.

The real shame is that some would rather remain blind due to their fears than stand strong because they refuse to be cowed.
Unpatriotic???....naw...that's what once made our country great.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn.
It's the same exact tactics. Same thing. Different "war", but exactly the same buttons to push.
I sat in traffic for four hours on the NJ turnpike because an "orange alert" had been issued. 100+ degrees for all that time for a bogus attempt to scare us.
It's the same kind of "thinking" that claims they'll be coming here, despite the fact that they don't own a navy nor an air force.
Can't you see that we are being played?
Let's remember the honest words..."We have nothing to fear but fear itself!"
Have you noticed how many here have bashed me without bothering to read the articles I've posted? I'm still waiting for anything that's disputable to be brought forth. Other than that, this remains what it is...horse s-it.
I'm not afraid of it in the least. I wear barn boots all the time and hose them off when the day is done. There's nothing to be afraid of...
especially when speaking truth.
Here's a final thought. I don't need any protection when I'm near the bee hives, unless I go over and take the top off of their hive and stir them up.

Read the articles I've put up. Genuine Risk's "Rolling Stone" article too.

The real shame is that some would rather remain blind due to their fears than stand strong because they refuse to be cowed.
Unpatriotic???....naw...that's what once made our country great.

Let's see,DTS, that's 3 posts of mine that you've ignored! Am I on your list? I never bash you...you just go off on a tangent and spot a conspiracy against the American people about once a week! I've read your commondreams stuff, and most of it is myopic and spun tighter than cotton candy! I need to take care of some things NOW,but I'll finish responding later! BTW...what did you have for dinner?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Let's see,DTS, that's 3 posts of mine that you've ignored! Am I on your list? I never bash you...you just go off on a tangent and spot a conspiracy against the American people about once a week! I've read your commondreams stuff, and most of it is myopic and spun tighter than cotton candy! I need to take care of some things NOW,but I'll finish responding later! BTW...what did you have for dinner?

Timm,
I'm not ignoring you. I just haven't seen you put up anything other than your "myopic" word. Either you got a new dictionary or find the need to use the word frequently...hence my nonresponse.
Do you have anything to bring to the discussion besides Lincoln and insults?
If so, put them out.
If not, carry on being myopic.

btw, I had chicken and biscuits for dinner, peas on the side. You?

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn.
It's the same exact tactics. Same thing. Different "war", but exactly the same buttons to push.
I sat in traffic for four hours on the NJ turnpike because an "orange alert" had been issued. 100+ degrees for all that time for a bogus attempt to scare us.
It's the same kind of "thinking" that claims they'll be coming here, despite the fact that they don't own a navy nor an air force.
Can't you see that we are being played?
Let's remember the honest words..."We have nothing to fear but fear itself!"
Have you noticed how many here have bashed me without bothering to read the articles I've posted? I'm still waiting for anything that's disputable to be brought forth. Other than that, this remains what it is...horse s-it.
I'm not afraid of it in the least. I wear barn boots all the time and hose them off when the day is done. There's nothing to be afraid of...
especially when speaking truth.
Here's a final thought. I don't need any protection when I'm near the bee hives, unless I go over and take the top off of their hive and stir them up.

Read the articles I've put up. Genuine Risk's "Rolling Stone" article too.

The real shame is that some would rather remain blind due to their fears than stand strong because they refuse to be cowed.
Unpatriotic???....naw...that's what once made our country great.

I believe there is a lot to be afraid of. We live in a time in which one willing human can do damage to thousands of others in an instant. Technology is way ahead of morality. I want to know where enriched Plutonium is, I want to know who has the rockets able to deliver payloads of explosives; we have to know these things. This is not the Civil War era were one person did not have the capablity of killing massive numbers of people. This is a new world. The technology of killing is not the same. You have got to recognize this.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I believe there is a lot to be afraid of. We live in a time in which one willing human can do damage to thousands of others in an instant. Technology is way ahead of morality. I want to know where enriched Plutonium is, I want to know who has the rockets able to deliver payloads of explosives; we have to know these things. This is not the Civil War era were one person did not have the capablity of killing massive numbers of people. This is a new world. The technology of killing is not the same. You have got to recognize this.

Well 650,000 men died in the Civil War, millions die in wars in Africa, millions more starve every single year. So I guess you are concerned about millions of wealthy people dying from a nuclear weapon. You could kill a billion people and that would leave us with 5 billion more.

Today is no different than any other time. Diseases have just been replaced by weapons.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Skippy,
We could have waited. That said, it doesn't address the "now".

Now, I know I'll get bashed big time for posting this link, but please do me a favor...read it first, bash me later.


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1022-26.htm

Commondreams is the equivalent to Fox News. Just garbage propaganda.

[timmgirvan]

DTS: Kindly refer to posts 20,22, and 33! I didn't bash you and what insults are you talking about? I mentioned previous discourse we've had and some of the results. I'm still researching the hab corp deal(the Prez doesn't have carte blanche). I'll be back...haven't eaten yet..World Serious is on...TTYL

[skippy3481]

DTS i won't ever bash you for your opinions i may disagree strongly with them but I will never attack you personally. That being said I read your article. I just don't agree with most of it. Bush was going to get screwed either way. if we waited and saddam dropped his bombs somewhere 3 years down the road, the nation would have been up in arms about his lack of foresight to protect his country. Just because we haven't found WMD's doesn't mean they didn't exist. Maybe he had them, maybe he didn't we will never know. We can all suppose we know(we both suppose diffrent outcomes) but honestly the only people that know would be saddam and his officers. Beyond that, bush made a mistake with the battle plan and unfortunatly we are stuck with it. The democrats would go ape crazy if he asked for 400,000 more troops to go fix the job. I think that the american political party landscape has really skewed his options. We as americans and esp politicians are more concerned with saving face with the people and winning voters then actually solving the problems we face. Too much finger pointing.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by skippy3481

DTS i won't ever bash you for your opinions i may disagree strongly with them but I will never attack you personally. That being said I read your article. I just don't agree with most of it. Bush was going to get screwed either way. if we waited and saddam dropped his bombs somewhere 3 years down the road, the nation would have been up in arms about his lack of foresight to protect his country. Just because we haven't found WMD's doesn't mean they didn't exist. Maybe he had them, maybe he didn't we will never know. We can all suppose we know(we both suppose diffrent outcomes) but honestly the only people that know would be saddam and his officers. Beyond that, bush made a mistake with the battle plan and unfortunatly we are stuck with it. The democrats would go ape crazy if he asked for 400,000 more troops to go fix the job. I think that the american political party landscape has really skewed his options. We as americans and esp politicians are more concerned with saving face with the people and winning voters then actually solving the problems we face. Too much finger pointing.

Skippy, the American PEOPLE would go crazy if Bush "asked for" 400,000 more soldiers, which quite frankly is about the number needed to have any chance of stabilizing Iraq. It's not the Dems. Read the Rolling Stone article-- not only do they have no power in gov't now, they don't even get to be at the debates over legislation. To really stabilize Iraq would mean bringing back the draft. Fat chance; Americans make a lot of noise about sacrifice, but it's usually someone else's sacrifice. If the draft were brought back, we'd pull out of Iraq in six months because Americans would go ape crazy at the thought of their kids being sent overseas. Most of these chicken hawks in Bush's gov't never served themselves; you think the average American is eager to serve?

Timm, the reason you don't read about liberals yelling today about Lincoln suspending habeus corpus is, oh, because it happened 140 YEARS AGO! And it was wrong then; virtually every historical account I've read about Lincoln's presidency say it was a mistake. And it's wrong now. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pgardn-- smart AND modest! Tee hee. Though I think Bush only saw the info he wanted to see and willfully ignored the rest and also hid the rest from those who might contradict what he wanted to do.

[repent]

isnt it cool that President Bush can be wrong about things and there is NOTHING the dems can do about it.

thats the advantage of being a WINNER, and not a LOSER like the members of the democratic party.


Repent

[timmgirvan]

GR: Of course liberals aren't going to bring up Lincoln, because that would legitimize Bushs' course, as it would provide a Presidential Precedent! None of this infringes on Americas' Rights....as it is defined by 'enemy combatant'. As I said, I haven't finished my research on 'habeus corpus' and what this bill details.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

GR: Of course liberals aren't going to bring up Lincoln, because that would legitimize Bushs' course, as it would provide a Presidential Precedent! None of this infringes on Americas' Rights....as it is defined by 'enemy combatant'. As I said, I haven't finished my research on 'habeus corpus' and what this bill details.

Timm, "Presidential" Presidents (whatever that means) screw up, too. And Lincoln screwed up when he suspended habeus corpus. Just as FDR screwed up when he authorized internment camps (and I love FDR. But that was a stupid, wrong decision).

Timm, if you were to be picked up off the street and jailed as an enemy combatant, under the new laws, how on earth are you going to convince anyone that they are wrong; that you are a US citizen, seeing as how you won't be given access to any sort of legal counsel, or even told the charges against you? Under the current laws, it's entirely within the bounds of possibility that American citizens could be "accidentally" jailed for years and years without any access to any sort of legal recourse.

You think that won't happen? Look at how we liberals get called terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, traitors, etc., etc. anytime we suggest Bush isn't the direct voice of Jesus. Which I find so interesting, seeing as how the major homegrown terrorists in the US have all been right-wingers and religious zealots. McVeigh, the Atlanta bomber, Waco-- the things these men stand for fall squarely in the "right-wing" category.

And the scandals that have truly hurt the nations long-term economic health have been waged by Republican captialists-- the savings and loan scandal, Enron, WorldCom. And don't get me started on Iran contra. And yet liberals, liberals, are the ones hurting our nation?

You think, with the Republicans current election slogan of "Vote for the Democrats and die" that the nuts in charge won't see fit to "accidentally" jail people who disagree with them, keeping them locked up for years without access to counsel or charges brought against them? Wake up!

It's up to you Republicans to reclaim your party, but when you regard your party as a sports team, like Repent does (what's up with that "winner" and "loser" stuff?) Go back to the sports page, Repent. you all seem willing to merrily ignore what your party has become and can convince yourself that a hummer in the Lincoln bedroom is more important than going to war, WAR, on maniupulated intelligence. Wha?

Whew. Okay. Rant over. Not, of course, directed at anyone here, 'cause I likes you all.