Should Songbird retire?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

She was 2-5, loped along on the easiest of leads and still got tagged. There was nothing "awesome" about her performance. But this is who she is. She's a nice filly who always shows up, no matter the track, and runs average to below-average races for the Grade I level. She is entirely dependent on who she's facing and she lost to a clearly better horse yesterday, so now she's lost a step? Come on. She's good for the game and her connections have been great about showcasing her across the country, but the idea that she is or ever was some invincible Hall of Fame-caliber filly is just absurd.

EXACTLY. She obviously was much better at 2 and 3 or better said further along then her counterparts then at 4 and that isnt a knock its just reality. Even at her very best in both BC races she has NEVER run an all time great race. Frankly its a silly conversation anybody who is objective realizes she has never been much more then slightly above average G1 talent, effectively Ashado lite, a filly born in the right year where her competition was below typical average. I guess those calls/posts/tweets for her to face open male competition are mute now, that's a good thing. She would get destroyed by Diversify whom isnt a Graded stakes winner too date, She might lose by a pole. The great fillies that SB is allegedly on par would would swallow him for breakfast.

Forever Unbridled is OK she ran 2+ lengths further then SB as SB meandered uncontested and STILL she couldnt draw off. Why simply because she isnt that fast. FU runs by appt. only obviously has to have some soundness issues, if you watched her last 1/4 it was painful, and she still got to SB at 10f's she would have won by 6...Its Unbridled Forever for goodness sake not Personal Ensign Inside Information Azeri etc

have a heart folks...You really think she is a faster filly then Ashado who was another born in right year greatest evah

At 2:
Won Spinaway S. (G1), Demoiselle S. (G2), Schuylerville S. (G2)
2nd Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies (G1)
3rd Frizette S. (G1)
At 3:
Won Breeders' Cup Distaff (G1), Coaching Club American Oaks (G1), Kentucky Oaks (G1), Fair Grounds Oaks (G2), Cotillion H. (G2)
2nd Mother Goose S. (G1), Ashland S. (G1)
3rd Alabama S. (G1)

At 4:
Won Ogden Phipps H. (G1), Go For Wand H. (G1), Beldame S. (G1)
2nd Pimlico Distaff H. (G3)
3rd Breeders' Cup Distaff (G1)

[Alabama Stakes]

Rachel was awesome. And her connections were smart enough to avoid Zenyatta blowing by her.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Rachel was awesome. And her connections were smart enough to avoid Zenyatta blowing by her.

Gotcha.. I think you are right about the Songbird photo as well.

"So you say there's a race
Of men in the trees
You're for tough legislation
Thanks for posting
I wait all night for posts like these"

Donald Fagen

[Alabama Stakes]

Donald Fagen must look back and say " how could we be that good back then and suck so badly now?" Though at halftime of the show i painfully sat through at Mohegan, I stumbled onto a roulette wheel that liked my 26 black / 28 black.

[taxicab]

So.....
If they ran the BC Distaff in a month,Songbird would be no better than the third choice........might even check in as the fifth choice.
The times they are a changing.
That's the beauty of horse racing,just about everything is settled on the track.
Songbird is going to have to reestablish herself in the publics eyes.
I have no clue if she's over the top,or if Hollendorfer can get her back to the winners circle in the BC again.
Just don't know.

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by taxicab

So.....
If they ran the BC Distaff in a month,Songbird would be no better than the third choice........might even check in as the fifth choice.
The times they are a changing.
That's the beauty of horse racing,just about everything is settled on the track.
Songbird is going to have to reestablish herself in the publics eyes.
I have no clue if she's over the top,or if Hollendorfer can get her back to the winners circle in the BC again.
Just don't know.

3rd or 5th choice, really? She has been overbet in almost every career race. She would probably be co favorite with Stellar Wind, 2nd choice at worst. Even though right now i dont think she could beat at least 4 horses being pointed to the Distaff.

[taxicab]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

3rd or 5th choice, really? She has been overbet in almost every career race. She would probably be co favorite with Stellar Wind, 2nd choice at worst. Even though right now i dont think she could beat at least 4 horses being pointed to the Distaff.

Isn't the shine off of her star quite a bit now ?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

3rd or 5th choice, really? She has been overbet in almost every career race. She would probably be co favorite with Stellar Wind, 2nd choice at worst. Even though right now i dont think she could beat at least 4 horses being pointed to the Distaff.

The most immediate concern for Songbird is to clear this physical exam hurdle by the owner. Regardless of actual results, the owner's comments suggest that he's looking for a way out of any further exposure.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that there is plenty of time for Songbird to come to hand before the Breeder's Cup. If given the green light, there is no way Hollendorfer follows this cute little trend of "training up to the BC" (just when you thought the f'n circus couldn't get any worse). She will almost certainly run in the Zenyatta, which is important, because it gives the filly a chance to run from "out of her stall". Lots of people, and quasi-people (e.g., Freddy), have taken it for granted that she brings her A-game to her East Coast starts. That wasn't the case last year (her highest rated race was the BC Distaff at Santa Anita), so why should it be this year? Keep in mind that two horses that supposedly laid her over a barrel, Stellar Wind and Beholder, never were able to duplicate their home form on the road.

Speaking of those two, when was the first time Stellar Wind actually ran a fast race? Looks like October of her 4yo season to me. Beholder? August of her 5yo year. There's still time for Songbird to move up.

Finally, as a point of comparison with Beholder, I mentioned last year that Beholder's 2016 defeats--the Pacific Classic aside where she clearly was not in California Chrome's league--might be related to the fact that she was being sent to the lead and thus a sitting duck in the stretch. In fact, at the time it had been over 3 years since she won a race wire-to-wire. In the BC, she reverted to a stalking trip and tagged Songbird late.

I'd be curious to see if Songbird could improve form by tweaking her running style. Having a target to run at might change things up, or at the very least give Smith a better cue as to when to try and break the race open with her speed. Last year, Songbird sat second early in 3 of 8 starts.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by taxicab

Isn't the shine off of her star quite a bit now ?

Pretty sure she beat Stellar wind. Who has only beaten Val, not songbird. Stellar wind will never beat Songbird. She won't lose again. Her star reads all wins except in the personal ensign . awarded second money despite winning the Breeders' Cup Distaff

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The most immediate concern for Songbird is to clear this physical exam hurdle by the owner. Regardless of actual results, the owner's comments suggest that he's looking for a way out of any further exposure.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that there is plenty of time for Songbird to come to hand before the Breeder's Cup. If given the green light, there is no way Hollendorfer follows this cute little trend of "training up to the BC" (just when you thought the f'n circus couldn't get any worse). She will almost certainly run in the Zenyatta, which is important, because it gives the filly a chance to run from "out of her stall". Lots of people, and quasi-people (e.g., Freddy), have taken it for granted that she brings her A-game to her East Coast starts. That wasn't the case last year (her highest rated race was the BC Distaff at Santa Anita), so why should it be this year? Keep in mind that two horses that supposedly laid her over a barrel, Stellar Wind and Beholder, never were able to duplicate their home form on the road.

Speaking of those two, when was the first time Stellar Wind actually ran a fast race? Looks like October of her 4yo season to me. Beholder? August of her 5yo year. There's still time for Songbird to move up.

Finally, as a point of comparison with Beholder, I mentioned last year that Beholder's 2016 defeats--the Pacific Classic aside where she clearly was not in California Chrome's league--might be related to the fact that she was being sent to the lead and thus a sitting duck in the stretch. In fact, at the time it had been over 3 years since she won a race wire-to-wire. In the BC, she reverted to a stalking trip and tagged Songbird late.

I'd be curious to see if Songbird could improve form by tweaking her running style. Having a target to run at might change things up, or at the very least give Smith a better cue as to when to try and break the race open with her speed. Last year, Songbird sat second early in 3 of 8 starts.

Really looking forward to watching her rate in the Distaff that will be fun. Let's just hope the Delmar surface is to her liking.

[Seattleallstar]

I brought up Paradise Woods earlier, so what do we make of her?

Was that one freakish run, just a fluke?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I brought up Paradise Woods earlier, so what do we make of her?

Was that one freakish run, just a fluke?

Another horse that suffered "too much, too soon". Jumped from a 5 1/2 furlong maiden win to 8 1/2 furlongs next out--never mind it was a Grade 1 race. Ran in the Kentucky Oaks in her 4th career start.

Simply put, she hasn't been able to overcome any adversity. Couldn't handle pace pressure, couldn't handle a muddy surface, maybe couldn't handle shipping. Then last weekend, couldn't overcome a bad break from the gate, couldn't settle, and folded like a cheap suit.

Probably has physical issues, too, since she didn't come out at 2, then went on the shelf for several months after the KY Oaks. Stumbling out the gate is never a good sign either in that respect.

If they sit on her and wait for the La Brea or an allowance at the end of the year, she might be able to realize some of her promise.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Really looking forward to watching her rate in the Distaff that will be fun. Let's just hope the Delmar surface is to her liking.

Yeah, the surface is a huge concern. Especially since Songbird has been so finicky about what tracks she likes in the past.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yeah, the surface is a huge concern. Especially since Songbird has been so finicky about what tracks she likes in the past.

Mo is so far off on this one

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yeah, the surface is a huge concern. Especially since Songbird has been so finicky about what tracks she likes in the past.

Well, Arrogate ran on everything before Delmar...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Well, Arrogate ran on everything before Delmar...

Yep, and his Beyer jumped up 30 points when he actually trained on it for a few weeks, registering the 5th fastest Beyer so far this year.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yeah, the surface is a huge concern. Especially since Songbird has been so finicky about what tracks she likes in the past.

Well we heard about the deep tiring track at Delaware so at least we have that excuse already warmed up in the bullpen. That plucky 92 BSF life or death to fend off a 50 claimer while galloping alone on the lead was just the a tear jerker who knew the good lord created such magnificence, we are blessed. I turned to the wife and said "remember Rachel's Haskell forget that Kaka this filly Songbird just re invented greatness.." Tito pass me a tissue

How about trying the boys I guess that's a non starter now huh? Even with her not having to commute to work? Good news with the advent of her new preferred way of going(rating) AND not having to travel she is likely to sprout wings..I don't know I am starting to think the Classic is the likely target why screw with Stellar Wind and we know she would have won last week if that cheat jockey didnt surprise her at the last minute or was it the crooked camera? Who knows maybe it was both?

Let's stop the madness for a minute and realize we both can name 10 fillies that she couldnt get with 5 lengths of on her best day. Does that make her rat NO it makes her absurd rep unwarranted.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Let's stop the madness for a minute and realize we both can name 10 fillies that she couldnt get with 5 lengths of on her best day. Does that make her rat know it makes her absurd rep unwarranted.

Utter filth. Never mind historical fillies--we all know she's not as fast. But name me some contemporary females that Songbird could have faced that were consistently running faster than her at the same point in their careers.

Beholder? Nope.
Stellar Wind? No.
Untapable? Wrong.
I'm A Chatterbox? Please.
Wedding Toast? Nah.
Curlina? Try again.
Forever Unbridled? SMH.
Stopcharginmaria? Really?
Sheer Drama? Scraping the bottom here.
Got Lucky? Not quite.
Warren's Veneda? Fail.
Elate? Forget about it.
Abel Tasman? Are you serious?

The only filly I could find was Cavorting, who registered 3 straight triple digit Beyers (top of 102) last year. Of course, she "bone bruised" her way into retirement after that display, conveniently opting out of both the Beldame and the BC Distaff--you know, championship events.

And as far as absurdity goes, it doesn't get any more absurd then foregoing a post-race interview of the winner of the Personal Ensign (Joel Rosario on Forever Unbridled) to ask Mike Smith if Songbird should be retired for losing the race in a photo.

The reality is Songbird can easily win this year's BC Distaff, because as slow as she is, so is everyone else--just like last year.

[tanner12oz]

She had an was lead saturday race was hers to lose..slow,fractions not tested. Should have been a romp..obviously something is amiss or everyone has caught up..when fillies go bad they stay bad..retire her

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by tanner12oz

She had an was lead saturday race was hers to lose..slow,fractions not tested. Should have been a romp..obviously something is amiss or everyone has caught up..when fillies go bad they stay bad..retire her

The race was nearly identical to her race in the BC Distaff. She responded when challenged mid stretch and just failed to last. Note Eskenformoney, who made a run at her along the fence, got her head ripped off, just like I'm A Chatterbox when she came at her in the BC last year. Forever Unbridled looked like she was going to crash the party last year when Songbird had an easy trip, so it shouldn't be particularly shocking that she was able to turn the tables in a race on relatively neutral ground.

Songbird has not "gone bad" by any stretch of the imagination. It's almost as if the naysayers want her gone now that she got beat again...I presume in case she happens to step up in her next two and ruins the "I told you so" party.