A question on Easy Goer...

[ArlJim78]

Nice posts. Puts things in perspctive. Everyone should look back at stuff like this before throwing around the "great" adjective.

Good posts Bravado

[SundayStar]

thanks for the info bravado. i guess the late 80's early 90's were the good ole days...........

Originally Posted by SundayStar

thanks for the info bravado. i guess the late 80's early 90's were the good ole days...........

Its going to be very hard to see horses running that fast ever again.
The reason for it is the lack of field size and rivalry where horses push each other to greater heights.
People seem to forget that horses can't read the DRF, but people can.
These days horses at the highets echelon tend to play keep away all year long and race against 4-6 other horses in the majority of their races.
Paces are slower and final time is a function of pace.
Also there is only so much you can do with a horse in the morning to get him to advance in fitness.
The matchups between the greats in the past pushed these horses on race days to hit new heights in conditioning and fitness.
Its really no different than tennis. If you play tennis agaisnt someone with no talent all the time, no matter how technically good you are, your game won't be raised. You take on someone of equal or greater ability, and your game will be raised.
How are today's horses supposed to advance to new heights and optimum fitness levels when they are running in slow paced small fields?
WOuld Sunday Silence and Easy Goer have been as fast without the battles pushing each horse?
Would Affirmed and Alydar been as fast without one pushing the other all year to greater heights?
Perhaps, but unlikely.
To get that to that really high, ultimate level of fitness you need to get their from racing and being pushed to new heights.
The way that the BC has shaped racing, well those days seem to be in the past. Thats going to make it awfully hard to see the greatness of years gone by in my opinion. Remember, as important as time and figures are, horses don't run against the clock, they run against other horses and when you are 5 in front as you roll of the turn whats gonna push the horse to run faster or harder.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Its going to be very hard to see horses running that fast ever again.
The reason for it is the lack of field size and rivalry where horses push each other to greater heights.
People seem to forget that horses can't read the DRF, but people can.
These days horses at the highets echelon tend to play keep away all year long and race against 4-6 other horses in the majority of their races.
Paces are slower and final time is a function of pace.
Also there is only so much you can do with a horse in the morning to get him to advance in fitness.
The matchups between the greats in the past pushed these horses on race days to hit new heights in conditioning and fitness.
Its really no different than tennis. If you play tennis agaisnt someone with no talent all the time, no matter how technically good you are, your game won't be raised. You take on someone of equal or greater ability, and your game will be raised.
How are today's horses supposed to advance to new heights and optimum fitness levels when they are running in slow paced small fields?
WOuld Sunday Silence and Easy Goer have been as fast without the battles pushing each horse?
Would Affirmed and Alydar been as fast without one pushing the other all year to greater heights?
Perhaps, but unlikely.
To get that to that really high, ultimate level of fitness you need to get their from racing and being pushed to new heights.
The way that the BC has shaped racing, well those days seem to be in the past. Thats going to make it awfully hard to see the greatness of years gone by in my opinion. Remember, as important as time and figures are, horses don't run against the clock, they run against other horses and when you are 5 in front as you roll of the turn whats gonna push the horse to run faster or harder.

We'll see another truly great one again, I'm sure. It hasn't been that long since Cigar. Then, going backwards, J Henry, Affirmed/Alydar, Spectacular Bid, Slew, Forego.

Probably going to be a gelding. Best I ever saw live was Forego. I remember driving to NY to see the Marlboro where he carried 137 and ran down Honest Pleasure by a head. I bet Honest Pleasure.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If Easy Goer ran those numbers today sheet players would be telling us he was as good as dead going into his 3YO season.

Thanks for posting those numbers. Seeing what really good horses were able to do puts these flash in the pan and unproven horses in perspective. The really good horses showed it over time and did it again and again. Easy Goer's 3YO season puts our recent darlings to shame.

Wow, Discreet Cat won the Jerome and Cigar Mile. Easy Goer won the Swale, Gotham, Wood, Belmont, Whitney, Travers, Woodward and JCGC, with seconds in the Derby, Preakness and BC Classic. OUCH!

And Sunday Silence won the San Felipe, Santa Anita Derby, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Super Derby, BC Classic, and Californian, with 2nds in the Belmont, Swaps, and Hollywood Gold Cup. Its a damned shame they shipped him to Japan. I loved that horse. What a year that was from the '88 BC-'89 BC...

[Antitrust32]

Formal Gold was a monster.. check out those beyers, 3 of the top beyers in that group.

[SundayStar]

Originally Posted by philcski

And Sunday Silence won the San Felipe, Santa Anita Derby, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Super Derby, BC Classic, and Californian, with 2nds in the Belmont, Swaps, and Hollywood Gold Cup. Its a damned shame they shipped him to Japan. I loved that horse. What a year that was from the '88 BC-'89 BC...

yeah, his blood wasn't blue enough and he had sickled hocks. it's funny, i doubt there's any bluer blood in japan than his.

cesario has sickled hocks too and that girl could fly.

[Bravado2112]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Formal Gold was a monster.. check out those beyers, 3 of the top beyers in that group.

Plus he ran a 122 in the Mass Cap. Formal Gold ran what was at the time the fastest debut Beyer Fig ever (don't recall if it still is). He didn't really move forward off that race until the following year, but he was sensationally fast that season. Formal Gold, Will's Way, and Skip Away put up #'s in the mid 120's virtually every race they ran that season. Unfortunately they kept facing each other and thus swapping wins. In an ordinary year any of them likely would have had a season for the ages. Throw in Gentleman for part of the year and Louis Quatorze until he got hurt and that was the most underrated and deepest older horse group we've had in a long while.

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

Plus he ran a 122 in the Mass Cap. Formal Gold ran what was at the time the fastest debut Beyer Fig ever (don't recall if it still is). He didn't really move forward off that race until the following year, but he was sensationally fast that season. Formal Gold, Will's Way, and Skip Away put up #'s in the mid 120's virtually every race they ran that season. Unfortunately they kept facing each other and thus swapping wins. In an ordinary year any of them likely would have had a season for the ages. Throw in Gentleman for part of the year and Louis Quatorze until he got hurt and that was the most underrated and deepest older horse group we've had in a long while.

Shame that they all are considered failures at stud. Skip Away has had moderate success, but certainly hasn't ever reproduced anything near himself.
Louis is the best sire of the bunch and enjoyed a resurgence last year.
But can you imagine if the 5 horses you just named had had success at stud? Imagine the talent that would be out there.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

Plus he ran a 122 in the Mass Cap. Formal Gold ran what was at the time the fastest debut Beyer Fig ever (don't recall if it still is). He didn't really move forward off that race until the following year, but he was sensationally fast that season. Formal Gold, Will's Way, and Skip Away put up #'s in the mid 120's virtually every race they ran that season. Unfortunately they kept facing each other and thus swapping wins. In an ordinary year any of them likely would have had a season for the ages. Throw in Gentleman for part of the year and Louis Quatorze until he got hurt and that was the most underrated and deepest older horse group we've had in a long while.

I love Will's Way.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I love Will's Way.

As well as hes done at stud I bet you could pick him up real cheap, put him right in the old backyard.
Send 4.95 and 3 cereal boxtops.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by oracle80

As well as hes done at stud I bet you could pick him up real cheap, put him right in the old backyard.
Send 4.95 and 3 cereal boxtops.

LOL! I know he's been quite the dud with the exception of Lion Tamer, but I loved that horse...

It's a shame...

[slotdirt]

This talk of yesteryear made me want to go back and re-watch the '89 Derby. Sunday Silence probably could have been DQ's at least twice there. The words "drunken sailor" come to mind in describing his stretch run.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

Easy got a 176. Cat got a 115. It should be simple. At a mile, each length should be about 1 1/2 Beyer points. Using this formula, Discreet Cat would have been at the 1/16 pole when Easy crossed the finish line. The track conditions have to be considered, though. Who knows? DC might have beaten the Phipps' color bearer that day.

The bottom line is that he did not run as fast as EG. Holy Bull would have smoked both of them at a mile in November..

I guess that would make Sunday Silence about a 180 then since the only time he lost to EG was at the irrelevant distance.

Holy Bull? He'd better hope Cigar wasn't in the same race as him.

Originally Posted by JJP

I guess that would make Sunday Silence about a 180 then since the only time he lost to EG was at the irrelevant distance.

Holy Bull? He'd better hope Cigar wasn't in the same race as him.

What have you been smoking?
Irrelevant distance? You ever even see that race? Distance made no difference. Easy had him the whole way anytime he wanted him.
Now what made the difference? The difference was that they had tight security on the barn SS was in before the race and ole Doc Harthill couldnt stop by.
I think that theory is lot better than yours. A length, a nose and a neck as opposed to the length of the stretch?
The program should have read, Harthill off. ****, Easy Goer couldnt even have Lasix and Harthill's working on SS and doing his preraces. everyplace except NY that was, and he got his ass handed to him.

I guess its just "a coiincidence" that the one time they met and Harthill couldn't get near SS that SS got bitchslapped by a pole huh?

[Bravado2112]

Holy Bull
Olympic - 117

Woodward - 116
Travers - 115
Haskell - 115
Dwyer - 119
Met Mile - 122
Derby - 85
Bluegrass - 113
Fla Derby - 115
FOY - 57
Hutch - 108

In Reality - 93
Futurity - 103
Alw - 91
MSW - 101

Cigar
BC Classic - 115
JC Gold Cup - 115
Woodward - 116
Pacific Classic - 111
Arlington - 117
Mass Cap - 112
Donn - 117

BC Classic - 117
JC Gold Cup - 111
Woodward - 111
Hol Gold Cup - 118
Mass Cap - 117
Pim Special - 114
Oaklawn - 121
GP Handicap - 116
Donn - 114
Alw - 108

[Bravado2112]

Ghostzapper
Met Mile - 123

BC Classic - 124
Woodward - 114
Iselin - 128
Tom Fool - 120

Vosburgh - 116
King's Bishop - 106
Alw - 99
Alw - 102

Alw - 84
MSW - 99

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I guess its just "a coiincidence" that the one time they met and Harthill couldn't get near SS that SS got bitchslapped by a pole huh?

or the one time was in new york, and easy goer was king of new york. plus the fact that a lot of horses, sunday presumably being one of them, don't like big sandy.
i don't buy the bald eagle being a cheat, not at all.