changes in the claiming game?

[Danzig]

no system is full proof. that being said, all systems can be improved, claiming would definitely be one of those.

i think a claim should be invalid if a horse fails to finish, or breaks down. that happens--who the hell wants to pay out money for a horse that sadly had to be put down? yet it happens. if there's any insurance at all on a horse who just got claimed, but is put down, who gets any payout? after all, the claimer hasn't paid on any policy. that part i feel definitely needs changing.
also, it would be nice if a claim wasn't put thru unless a horse was passed by a vet--a NEUTRAL vet. obviously if you put in a claim for a horse and he stinks up the track you wouldn't want the claimer to encourage his vet to find something so as to void the claim.

also, re this auction idea. how long after the race would you wait? some horses look ok immediately after a race, but once cooled down are lamer than the day is long. and look lame til warmed up.

presumably a horse has to be racing fit to race--but we're not that naive. but i know i wouldn't want to claim a horse and then find he's not fit for even the lowest level of racing.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

no system is full proof. that being said, all systems can be improved, claiming would definitely be one of those.

i think a claim should be invalid if a horse fails to finish, or breaks down. that happens--who the hell wants to pay out money for a horse that sadly had to be put down? yet it happens. if there's any insurance at all on a horse who just got claimed, but is put down, who gets any payout? after all, the claimer hasn't paid on any policy. that part i feel definitely needs changing.
also, it would be nice if a claim wasn't put thru unless a horse was passed by a vet--a NEUTRAL vet. obviously if you put in a claim for a horse and he stinks up the track you wouldn't want the claimer to encourage his vet to find something so as to void the claim.

also, re this auction idea. how long after the race would you wait? some horses look ok immediately after a race, but once cooled down are lamer than the day is long. and look lame til warmed up.

presumably a horse has to be racing fit to race--but we're not that naive. but i know i wouldn't want to claim a horse and then find he's not fit for even the lowest level of racing.

You can buy something called "claim insurance", so that if the horse you claim breaks down and is put down, you would get your money back.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You can buy something called "claim insurance", so that if the horse you claim breaks down and is put down, you would get your money back.

hmm.

thanks for the info!

but then, i should have figured that. i think you can insure anything anymore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

The "auction" could be held right after the race. It could be a sealed bid auction. There could be something like a claim box, and interested owners would each be able to make a single sealed bid. Highest bid gets the horse. There would need to be a brief period after the race where prospective buyers could look over a horse.

There would probably have to be a minimum bid allowed, so that people do not buy horses for $100. The minimum bid should probably be set close to what the current "claim" price is. It would be posted as part of the conditions of the race.

I don't think this procedure would be any more expensive to implement than the current claim procedure.

A major reason for having claiming races is to offer a fairly level set of horses to the betting public. This "auction" structure would accomplish that goal far better than the current claiming structure. A trainer knows going in that if his/her horse wins the race, it will very likely be bought.

By moving the "claim" to after the race rather than before, you take away any chance of a trainer to unload an injured horse. You also take away the incentive to run the injured horse.

--Dunbar

Unfortunately, this would also remove my favorite angle in claiming races: betting against the overbet fav who does not logically belong in a race at a dropped down level.

Where would all of this take place? Where would you examine the horses? Right on the track? What time frame would there be? Do you really think it will be feasable for tracks that run a majority of claiming races a day to hold an auction after everyone of them? What about maiden claiming races for 2 yo's? Who would run a horse in them? Especially first time starters that run well? No one will take a chance in losing them. What you will create is more problems, litigation, etc.
Hundreds of horses are claimed every week. Most of them aren't so crippled that they cant race again. Most horses that run in cheaper claiming races aren't broke down, they are slow.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You can buy something called "claim insurance", so that if the horse you claim breaks down and is put down, you would get your money back.

Richi, how much does something like this cost, say on a 20k Claim

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Some of you may not be aware of this, but often times you can't even tell much about a horse's condition right after the race. You can tell much more a day or two later after all the drugs wear off. Horses will often times look fine right after the race but two days later they are totally lame after all the drugs wear off.

There is some truth to this and the body produces endocrines naturally that will wear off after resting also.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

Richi, how much does something like this cost, say on a 20k Claim

I believe 5% of claiming price. Some states HBPA's offer free claming ins to members under a group policy.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I believe 5% of claiming price. Some states HBPA's offer free claming ins to members under a group policy.

so 20k plus 1k to insure....interesting...

Yo Cannon, do first time owners have to hook a trainer up, up front, like a 5k advance to train the horse or is it on the honor system?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

so 20k plus 1k to insure....interesting...

Yo Cannon, do first time owners have to hook a trainer up, up front, like a 5k advance to train the horse or is it on the honor system?

Even though I love your advance idea, usually you get billed at the end of the month.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Even though I love your advance idea, usually you get billed at the end of the month.

I see why it is a pain in the ass then, people don't pay their regular life bills and then they have to pay for the friggin horse, which I am assuming is more then just the day rate but also the meds and medical maintence included in that monthly bill

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I believe 5% of claiming price. Some states HBPA's offer free claming ins to members under a group policy.

I don't think it's nearly that expensive. It only costs 5% to insure a horse for the whole year. I think the claim insurance only insures the horse for one race. I don't think it would be 5% to insure a horse against a one-time chance of a breakdown in the race you claim him.

[The Bid]

Some guys pay in adavance. I paid my horse from point of purchase at the sale until his first race. The trainer and I negotiated a fair rate.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Some guys pay in adavance. I paid my horse from point of purchase at the sale until his first race. The trainer and I negotiated a fair rate.

You get a break for doing that?

[The Bid]

Yes, the trainer needed liquid money, and I thought it would be a good deal for me to front the money and get a break on day rate. We both got what we considered a good deal.

Trainers always can use the liquid cash, its tough to keep over 10 in training if owners start backing you up, very tough

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Where would all of this take place? Where would you examine the horses? Right on the track? What time frame would there be? Do you really think it will be feasable for tracks that run a majority of claiming races a day to hold an auction after everyone of them? What about maiden claiming races for 2 yo's? Who would run a horse in them? Especially first time starters that run well? No one will take a chance in losing them. What you will create is more problems, litigation, etc.
Hundreds of horses are claimed every week. Most of them aren't so crippled that they cant race again. Most horses that run in cheaper claiming races aren't broke down, they are slow.

You raise some good questions about time and place of the "examination". I'm guessing the length of the "examination" period would be on the order of 15" or 30". I don't see any reason why the whole process would have to be completed before the start of the next race. As far as the "auction" itself, it shouldn't take any more time than what it takes to drop a bid into a claim box.

Whatever shortcomings this process has in terms of lameness that doesn't show up until the following day, it would still be much safer for the buyer than the current procedure.

At any rate, I think it's a good topic for discussion. Maybe a procedure can evolve that satisfies your concerns.

--Dunbar

[The Bid]

Should just run one and send it directly to the auction ring. Dont give it any water, dont cool it out, just auction them off. Sounds almost foolproof.

Originally Posted by The Bid

Should just run one and send it directly to the auction ring. Dont give it any water, dont cool it out, just auction them off. Sounds almost foolproof.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!