Get us out...or CNN out

[Downthestretch55]

GR,
Thanks for saying it again and again.
You are spot on!
Others use racist names, just like during Vietnam days the indigenous people were called "gooks".
When anyone dehumanizes his fellow human inhabitants on this planet, it only demonstrates the justification for abhorent policies and actions.
If any war monger reads this, please answer only one question so as to demonstrate your intelligence, define the word "victory".
Thank you. Also, facts, not personal attacks.

[Cajungator26]

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Only I issue I take that rape is a tactic of modern war. I think it's an insult to the men and women that serve us. but I'll definitely check with my future father in law and brother in law. One was a linquist in Vietnam and one was a Marine. I'll ask them how rape class was in basic training.

......

But I guess if you saw the release on the real Iraq plan Shock, Awe, & Rape...I'll take your word on it.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

Let's not pretend it doesn't still happen, and let's not pretend that it doesn't happen at the hands of American troops.

Nobody here has ever said that American soldiers are inhumane or that they have no compassion for Iraqi women, children, or anyone else. Nobody here has said, or insinuated in any way, that American soldiers are generally rapists. By and large, American soldiers are heroes in every sense of the word.

But they aren't all perfect, and it's not wrong to point it out.

I didn't even have to scroll down the page at google.com to find this gem for you: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1789544.shtml

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Now am I naive that it hasn't happened in every war? No, however I don't believe that in modern war it's instructed or ordered. War is ugly....it changes people.

Brian, I clearly did say it occurs...however a tactic of war? It's an awful thing that definitely occurs....but I for one do think it's the minority and not the majority.

and you edit out the part of my post that says that?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

Cajun,
I really like you as a person.
Have you heard about Haditha?
I also know much about Vietnam. Try Mei Li, Medina, Calley.
Google will do.
"Victory"? Anyone????
DTS

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

but I for one do think it's the minority and not the majority.

So does everyone else here, as far as I can tell -- so I'm not sure why everyone is getting all defensive and accusing people of insinuating that all American soldiers are rapists...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Let's not pretend it doesn't still happen, and let's not pretend that it doesn't happen at the hands of American troops.

Nobody here has ever said that American soldiers are inhumane or that they have no compassion for Iraqi women, children, or anyone else. Nobody here has said, or insinuated in any way, that American soldiers are generally rapists. By and large, American soldiers are heroes in every sense of the word.

But they aren't all perfect, and it's not wrong to point it out.

I didn't even have to scroll down the page at google.com to find this gem for you: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1789544.shtml

Of course it happens! It happens here all of the time, but guess what, it's not a tactic of war. While I'm at it, let me point out to you that Orlando has one of the highest murder and rape rates in the country. Is that a tactic of war too? I just think that to word it the way it was worded was inaccurate...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Brian, I clearly did say it occurs...however a tactic of war?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Of course it happens! It happens here all of the time, but guess what, it's not a tactic of war. While I'm at it, let me point out to you that Orlando has one of the highest murder and rape rates in the country. Is that a tactic of war too? I just think that to word it the way it was worded was inaccurate...

Sudan.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Hey, MinnSkinny, where do you stand-- rape is a tactic of war as old as war. Would you support American men raping Iraqi women to intimidate the men? Is that appropriate? How about raping children? What, exactly, do you think the soldiers should be doing that the presence of CNN is keeping them from doing? Tell me, would you support our soldiers raping women and children? That's a very effective win dirty tactic. Would you support it? Where is your line?

maybe I didn't comprehend correctly....I guess she was saying would it be ok if we won at that cost....but boy it's close, that first sentence got me. there is the insinuation that CNN is keeping the soldiers morality in check as regards to rape at the end.

Sorry GR...I guess that SAT's are better kicked a in the math, however didn't do so well in the English

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Cajun,
I really like you as a person.
Have you heard about Haditha?
I also know much about Vietnam. Try Mei Li, Medina, Calley.
Google will do.
"Victory"? Anyone????
DTS

Did you serve, Wayne?

Rather than using google.com, I have found that I've learned a lot more about it just by talking to the people in this country that have served. (My Dad being one of them.)

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Sudan.

I wouldn't consider that modern war. Guess who is the peacekeeping force?


Peace is the only solution to the suffering of the Sudanese people. Recent efforts by the U.S. Special Envoy for Peace in Sudan,

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

I wouldn't consider that modern war. Guess who is the peacekeeping force?


Peace is the only solution to the suffering of the Sudanese people. Recent efforts by the U.S. Special Envoy for Peace in Sudan,

What qualifies as "modern" war, if not a war occurring at this very moment?

I've got to get that clarified before i can comment any further, because if we don't even see the word "modern" in the same way, then it's pointless to further talk about Sudan even though it's the single best example out there.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Did you serve, Wayne?

Rather than using google.com, I have found that I've learned a lot more about it just by talking to the people in this country that have served. (My Dad being one of them.)

No Cajun,
I didn't. I was in college (student deferment). Alas, I lost too many friends, and those that returned were either very badly crippled, or saw the folly of their actions and organized the local college branch of Vets Against the War.
I was in the Students Mobilization to End the War.
Sidenote, my son's girl friend is a psychology post grad doing counseling with returned vets from Iraq, her thesis is about post traumatic stress disorder.
Too many stories to tell.
There has to be a better way. There has to be.
If we are unable to find that way, we'll only continue to cause others to suffer, as we do ourselves.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

What qualifies as "modern" war, if not a war occurring at this very moment?

I've got to get that clarified before i can comment any further, because if we don't even see the word "modern" in the same way, then it's pointless to further talk about Sudan even though it's the single best example out there.

I'm not talking that it occurs in the modern era....

War is ugly, I don't like it...so don't mistake me for a war monger. Modern...rules of engagement, ethical treatment of POW's...etc. Geneva convention.

and yes I'm aware some of these statutes have been broken by our own country.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

I'm not talking that it occurs in the modern era....

War is ugly, I don't like it...so don't mistake me for a war monger. Modern...rules of engagement, ethical treatment of POW's...etc. Geneva convention.

and yes I'm aware some of these statutes have been broken by our own country.

that's where we're not connecting here, is that your definition of modern war renders this entire conversation moot. if, in order to be a modern war, people have to follow those rules -- then there is no such thing as modern war because that will never be entirely achieved by any army from any country in a full-fledged war. In your definition of modern war, rape does not exist because everyone is polite and follows the "rules" -- so because rape does still exist as a tactic of war, what then do we consider to be modern war?

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

that's where we're not connecting here, is that your definition of modern war renders this entire conversation moot. if, in order to be a modern war, people have to follow those rules -- then there is no such thing as modern war because that will never be entirely achieved by any army from any country in a full-fledged war. In your definition of modern war, rape does not exist because everyone is polite and follows the "rules" -- so because rape does still exist as a tactic of war, what then do we consider to be modern war?

I think we're closer than it appears, of course it can't be entirely achieved, but is the Sudan different as a civilized nation and does that civil war have anything in common with war in Iraq, other than it is ugly and sensless? I think it's clear it's ordered in Sudan. Are the minority of US soldiers that commit rape doing this to gain a tatical advantage on the enemy? Or is it a result of the stress and horror, maybe underlying character in some?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

that's where we're not connecting here, is that your definition of modern war renders this entire conversation moot. if, in order to be a modern war, people have to follow those rules -- then there is no such thing as modern war because that will never be entirely achieved by any army from any country in a full-fledged war. In your definition of modern war, rape does not exist because everyone is polite and follows the "rules" -- so because rape does still exist as a tactic of war, what then do we consider to be modern war?

Brian,
Sometimes we get bogged down about splitting hairs.
Is it worse to rape someone or just kill them?
Maybe burning with napalm makes sense, or cluster bombs, or mines.
Do we really need to qualify the level of barbarism to make it saleable?
Does it make us feel more righteous?
Some people have numbed their consience to the tragedy.
They'll dig their heels in an try to continue to convince others of the validity of the actions they support.
Yet, they remain silent on the question of "victory".
Cemetaries are very quiet places.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Brian,
Sometimes we get bogged down about splitting hairs.
Is it worse to rape someone or just kill them?
Maybe burning with napalm makes sense, or cluster bombs, or mines.
Do we really need to qualify the level of barbarism to make it saleable?
Does it make us feel more righteous?
Some people have numbed their consience to the tragedy.
They'll dig their heels in an try to continue to convince others of the validity of the actions they support.
Yet, they remain silent on the question of "victory".
Cemetaries are very quiet places.

you've got me all wrong DTS, you really do. But I've always liked you since ESPN....your compassion is relentless and that's admirable.

I'm really sorry you feel the way you do about me...I want them home too.

If someone could quote me on this, I'd appreciate it, I think he has me on ignore.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

I think we're closer than it appears, of course it can't be entirely achieved, but is the Sudan different as a civilized nation and does that civil war have anything in common with war in Iraq, other than it is ugly and sensless? I think it's clear it's ordered in Sudan. Are the minority of US soldiers that commit rape doing this to gain a tatical advantage on the enemy? Or is it a result of the stress and horror, maybe underlying character in some?

I don't think the wars are too similar, but atrocities are atrocities no matter which way you cut it.

I wouldn't purport that American soldiers who rape Iraqis do so in order to get a leg-up on the enemy. In Sudan, the case is strikingly different. Rape embodies the concept of a war tactic. Rape is a humiliating, dehumanizing experience. Watching enemy soldiers rape one's wife creates a very distinct tactical advantage by changing the emotional state of those people. Multiply this by the thousands and thousands of rapes that are occurring, and you have rape being used as a tactic of war.

It's just not a tactic that American soldiers use.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I don't think the wars are too similar, but atrocities are atrocities no matter which way you cut it.

I wouldn't purport that American soldiers who rape Iraqis do so in order to get a leg-up on the enemy. In Sudan, the case is strikingly different. Rape embodies the concept of a war tactic. Rape is a humiliating, dehumanizing experience. Watching enemy soldiers rape one's wife creates a very distinct tactical advantage by changing the emotional state of those people. Multiply this by the thousands and thousands of rapes that are occurring, and you have rape being used as a tactic of war.

It's just not a tactic that American soldiers use.

And I re-read GR's post and apologized, man we took a long time getting here....but at least I'm almost done with work...lol