Eclipse /Turf Male

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Scav

There were a couple that were jacked up but what are you going to do, it is corrupt anyways and worthless, it is just hilarious to see old guys like Calabrese bitching about his stalls from Stronach AT AN AWARDS ASSEMBLY. HE IS AWESOME.

I know they are worthless, why do you think I wasnt on here last night bitching and moaning about it. They mean nothing to me, I just wanted to start a conversation and see what people had to say about it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

On the dirt discussion, which I know we've already had, I will be shocked and disappointed if there aren't more than a few fillies that dominate her on that surface.....but " incredible on the turf "??

Perhaps " promising " would be slightly more accurate. Sorry if I still believe that two wins as a 2YO, one at 5 1/2 furlongs, doesn't constitute incredible.

If people didn't build up undeserving false hopes perhaps there would be less disappointments.

You're right all the way -- I framed what I said wrong. I believe she WILL be incredible on the turf...she certainly looks the part when she runs on it...visually, i think she's incredible to watch.

And you may be right that there will be those who take her place on the top for the dirt, but until someone does I'm going to keep thinking she's the best out there...and there's room for a progression from 2 to 3, which would make her awfully tough in any spot by most accounts.

[GPK]

Would have loved to see Point Ashley stick around and run more on dirt, but she had nothing left to prove really....

[GPK]

just watched the replay of the Summer Stakes @ Woodbine...she pissed on those boys and laughed at them as she pulled away. She just flat moves beautifully over the grass...

[Gander]

I have to agree with Kevin here that you cant give it to a horse with only 1 grade 1 win when there are two horses who won multiple grade 1's and ran against top company like English Channel and Tin Man.

Now Tin Man caught a couple of weak fields and English Channel beat a bunch of packrats on Jockey Club Gold Cup Day, but they showed up and ran good every time.

Because of the Arlington Million, I have to give it to Tin Man, but I dont diss those who would give it to English Channel because of that extra Grade 1 he won.

We argued for weeks on how Tin Man stole the Arlington Million, but the fact is he showed up and was going to be hard to beat no matter what that day. He beat the best field in that race, even stronger than what showed up in the BC. I'm not buying that his win was "phony" or undeserving.

[The Bid]

The Tin Man should have won the Eclipse.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by The Bid

The Tin Man should have won the Eclipse.

again, not gonna make a difference on whether I sleep tonight or not, I just plainly thought TTM or EC was more deserving that MA. That is my opinion and I don't think that there are any facts out there that can be presented to me to change that opinion.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by T3B

again, not gonna make a difference on whether I sleep tonight or not, I just plainly thought TTM or EC was more deserving that MA. That is my opinion and I don't think that there are any facts out there that can be presented to me to change that opinion.

he won more and did more ...won the bc turf...hes a great story overlooked for the most part..

[GPK]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

he won more and did more ...won the bc turf...hes a great story overlooked for the most part..

huh, such as? Im not knocking the horse Matt, but come on. Maybe there is more to the story than I know, but to say he did more...I have a hard time believing that.

[GPK]

MA raced 7 times....5 wins....1 grade 1

EC raced 7 times....4 wins....3 grade 1's


that is doing more and better?

[The Bid]

If The Tin Man holding his top form as an 8yo isnt a good story I dont know what is. He handled some serious horses in the last year, he ran huge everytime they put him on the track. IMO there is nobody more deserving than him. 2 mill in the bank 4 for 5, only loss coming in Dubai, and hes 8. He should have won

[Gander]

The best field assembled in any turf race in the US all year was the Arlington Million. The Tin Man won that race. He also won a couple others, one being another grade 1 and finished 2nd in a huge race in Dubai to a horse who would have been odds on had he run in the BC Turf. Thats enough for me in a year where there was no dominant horse.

Lets face it, this hasnt exactly been an electrifying decade for US turf horses like the 90's when we had Paradise Creek, Lure and Star of Cozzene who all raced against each other. All 3 of those horses would have gobbled up and spit out The Tin Man, EC and Cacique. None would have to use the excuse that the Tin Man "stole" the Arlington Million, thats for sure@!

[GPK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Kev, i understand what you are saying but here is how I looked at it, because I thought Miesque's Approvel should be the winner. Arguably the two biggest turf races distance wise in the country are the Arlington Million and the BC turf. English Channel lost both. The Tin Man defeated him by winning the Arlington Million and race record was just as good as EC's. I think they kind of crossed each other out. Tough to seperate them. Whereas MA won the BC Mile, the biggest middle distance turf race, and had a very good year. Add to it the outside stuff like him being in a claiming race last year, his unbelievable turn around. Remember, it's an opinion vote, voted on by writers so it'll never be correct. I personally think in this case it is, but surely a very valid arguement could be made for either one of the 3.

In all honesty, its hard to even really compare MA to EC or TTM. MA ran in 2 races over 1 mile all year. He ran in the 1 1/8 Sunshine Millions Turf (beating Silver Tree and Icy Atlantic ) in a race that was gift wrapped for him by the pace setters (:46, 1:09, 1:33, 1:44). Come on...I could have run down the frontrunners with them setting those fractions. His only other race over 1 mile was the Canadian Turf Handicap, where he finished 2nd to none other than....ENGLISH CHANNEL. He had no excuses that day other than he simply wasn't good enough. He had pace to run at, he was making his 3rd start for Wolfson, was in top form. English Channel was coming off a 4.5 month layoff....clearly not in top form and was using that race as a prep the
Turf Classic on Derby Day.
The rest of MA's races last year were all for 1 mile...no more, no less. He gets Artie at the wire in the Makers Mark, and we all know that Artie was a shadow of his former self, so no great feat there IMO. MA then beats the mighty FREE THINKING in the Firecracker, and we all KNOW what a great turf horse he is. He then backs that up with a HUGE effort over the mighty HOTSTUFFANDTHENSOME AND SENOR SWINGER in that hotly contest Grade 3 Redbank. He then runs a non competitive 4th in the Shadwell. Tops the year off by run FANTASTIC in the BC Mile and winning....

Im sorry, 1 great race does not equal an Eclipse in my book.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Kev, i love ya man but don't you think you are a tad biased? I mean geez you have English Channel license plates. If EC deserves it so much couldn't such a strong arguement be made for The Tin Man. I mean he beat your boy for fun at Arlington. EC's problem is he traded punches all year with Cacique, I don't see you bothered by Cacique not being a finalist. He won 2 grade 1's and beat your boy twice. It was a tough decision, but EC not winning the BC cost him, plain and simple. BC races have a huge impact always and EC lost when MA won.

real quick, and I will respond more this afternoon, but I would have had no problem whatsoever had TTM won the Eclipse. He had a wonderful year, no doubt.

As fas as Cacique, he ran one of THE BEST turf races this year when finishing 4th in the Kilroe Mile out west. He was beaten a 1/2 length maybe after having to go 10 wide maybe???

again, will respond more in detail after work.

shower time...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

scrub that hate er off .. ..ec is ok if he would have won the bc or won the million..hed have been a contender...

[RAWSKILLZ]

The grand ole man of Turf Tin Man went to Dubai ran a hellava 2nd and laso won the Arlington Million! He finished the year with one loss, a 2nd. Its a shame that he lost out the award because he missed the BC. I love English Channel but Tinny should have won dang it!!

[Danzig]

i think the tin man should have gotten it before miesque.

maybe they should run lava man on turf all year-wonder if he would do better on that after shipping....probably not, if he's a head case--but worth a go.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

scrub that hate er off .. ..ec is ok if he would have won the bc or won the million..hed have been a contender...

Hooves...not hating at all...I like MA, he is a good horse. I just think its tough to justify the Eclipse on the BC race alone.

ALL 3 horses ran some really good races and ALL 3 ran some not so good races. Its just of my opinion that TTM and EC ran better races against better horses more often.

[Gander]

The Tin Man would have gotten it if there wasnt such a intense bias against west coast horses.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Gander

The Tin Man would have gotten it if there wasnt such a intense bias against west coast horses.

from what I understand, all the TVG guys never mentioned EC. All they talked about was TTM. So, the bias works both ways...