Turfway

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Did you notice the kickback tonight Cannon?

I saw multiple horses pull themselves out of spots due to the kickback. Seasoned horses, not first timers who have never eaten any dirt, horses that normally sit that trip. This is the first time in a while Ive really noticed heavy kickback.

Jim, the dirt track they had was the worst dirt track in the world probably, how could it be any worse?

For the record 3 were vanned off tonight

Watch the kick back on a sloppy track.

There is no worse place in the world for kickback than the Meadowlands. Horses get more eye injuries there than anywhere, not to mention what happens to the jocks.

Listen, Polytrack is not perfect and its designers may have sold it a bit strong but as we have said many times it is better than the alternative at Turfway. As far as in California, though I dont race there much the horseman were begging for a change which says something about what is going on there. Arlington simply had to do something or get buried if they had another bad run again this year.
It like I said in my rant about the Breeders Cup, I just am tired of fighting for things that I can not change. I will simply adjust my way of doing things and move on.

[The Bid]

The kickback tonight was brutal. Watch the Broganville race on race replays, the horse was hit in the head with a piece of frozen poly that was bigger than a meteor. The track was frozen and balling up this morning during training, and tonight it was worse.

I dont like poly Cannon, I like a good dirt surface. There was a rush to install this **** as soon as Keeneland started making money on it.

As a trainer would you rather have a good conventional dirt surface like the Oklahoma track, or Poly

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

The kickback tonight was brutal. Watch the Broganville race on race replays, the horse was hit in the head with a piece of frozen poly that was bigger than a meteor. The track was frozen and balling up this morning during training, and tonight it was worse.

I dont like poly Cannon, I like a good dirt surface. There was a rush to install this **** all over as soon as Keeneland started making money on it.

I understand but you have to move on, dude. You are taking this all way too hard.

[The Bid]

I cant Cannon, too much history in the game to make changes this drastic.

Ill fight the fight until its down everywhere, then Ill move to Argentina.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

As a trainer would you rather have a good conventional dirt surface like the Oklahoma track, or Poly

Oklahoma aint what it used to be. Personally I have found that almost all of the tracks that I train at have moved in the wrong direction. Tampa is way harder than it used to be, used to be the best surface to train on but there were just mostly **** horses there so no one knew. Churchill added too much clay and now is awful when wet. Pre poly Keeneland was like training on a minefield. Belmont is bad when it rains. Saratoga main track has way too many breakdowns on it for me, especially considering the quality of horses there (but it may be against the law in the Peoples Republic of NY to say anything negative about Saratoga), Gulfstream sucks but you cant say that or frank gets mad, never trained at Palm Meadows, Hialeah was always good but gone noe, Fair Grounds is pretty good but not as good as it was (but they get the Katrina pass for right now) complaining about the surfaces at Monmouth is required in order to get a license in NJ, Delaware has a horrible reputation

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I cant Cannon, too much history in the game to make changes this drastic.

Ill fight the fight until its down everywhere, then Ill move to Argentina.

Move to Costa Rica, hot chicks, all wagering is legal online, great weather, no poly, volcanos can damped the mood occasionally though

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Oklahoma aint what it used to be. Personally I have found that almost all of the tracks that I train at have moved in the wrong direction. Tampa is way harder than it used to be, used to be the best surface to train on but there were just mostly **** horses there so no one knew. Churchill added too much clay and now is awful when wet. Pre poly Keeneland was like training on a minefield. Belmont is bad when it rains. Saratoga main track has way too many breakdowns on it for me, especially considering the quality of horses there (but it may be against the law in the Peoples Republic of NY to say anything negative about Saratoga), Gulfstream sucks but you cant say that or frank gets mad, never trained at Palm Meadows, Hialeah was always good but gone noe, Fair Grounds is pretty good but not as good as it was (but they get the Katrina pass for right now) complaining about the surfaces at Monmouth is required in order to get a license in NJ, Delaware has a horrible reputation

and not just for track surface from what I understand.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I cant Cannon, too much history in the game to make changes this drastic.

Ill fight the fight until its down everywhere, then Ill move to Argentina.

"History is for baseball" says NTRA when making the announcement that the Breeders Cup will expand to 20 races and include Camels when held next year in Sri Lanka.

[The Bid]

So you would implement poly everywhere Cannon?

haha, 20 race card including camels. They already do the wiener dogs, thats a big hit at los al

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by T3B

and not just for track surface from what I understand.

Not that there is anything wrong with it......

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

So you would implement poly everywhere Cannon?

No I like a little variety. From a selfish point of view I think poly levels the playing field a little for the smaller outfits because it will be years before anyone figures out how to breed and buy for Polytracks. Once they do the big outfits will buy up all the poly horses too.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not that there is anything wrong with it......

LMFAO....I guess it depends on what side of that you are on.

Had a very interesting sit down with a former racing secretary there one day at an OTB....very insightful is all I will say

[The Bid]

Thast the only thing that gives me any satisfaction about the entire ordeal. Keeneland will take a huge hit at the sales during transition to Poly, it will change the entire breeding game. All the speed weve bred into the American pedigrees will be obsolete. Itll bite Keeneland right in the ass when people have cold feet at the sales due to lack of data.

I like a little variety too, train them on poly, and run them on dirt.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Thast the only thing that gives me any satisfaction about the entire ordeal. Keeneland will take a huge hit at the sales during transition to Poly, it will change the entire breeding game. All the speed weve bred into the American pedigrees will be obsolete. Itll bite Keeneland right in the ass when people have cold feet at the sales due to lack of data.

I like a little variety too, train them on poly, and run them on dirt.

It wont hurt the prices and may actually help sustain them by making turf horses more valuable.
Why the anomisity towards Keeneland? Outside of being a little snobbish there is little to dislike about the place

[The Bid]

I think it will cripple the sale Cannon. The median price of horses will drop drastically with sires being unproven on poly. I dont generally buy into the idea that turf horses like poly either, I think its a completely different surface all together. Also I dont think all polys are created equal, different composition.

At the very least there will be a very cool market in the median pricerange...between 30 and 150. How can you buy a horse by a sire whos unproven to produce a runner over a surface? I wouldnt do it and I buy every year.

Love Keeneland, I dont like politics playing a role in the games future. I think Keeneland getting involved with poly has forced it along, there should have been a period of tests, checks, and balances, instead of a rush to install POLY

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think it will cripple the sale Cannon. The median price of horses will drop drastically with sires being unproven on poly. I dont generally buy into the idea that turf horses like poly either, I think its a completely different surface all together. Also I dont think all polys are created equal, different composition.

At the very least there will be a very cool market in the median pricerange...between 30 and 150. How can you buy a horse by a sire whos unproven to produce a runner over a surface? I wouldnt do it and I buy every year.

Love Keeneland, I dont like politics playing a role in the games future. I think Keeneland getting involved with poly has forced it along, there should have been a period of tests, checks, and balances, instead of a rush to install POLY

I think you are buying too much into the effect this will have on the sales. Remember that the people who buy horses at the top end make more money when the prices are high. I have reason to believe that almost all sales over a million dollars have some kind of arrangement attached.
Plus a downturn in the sales market would be the good fortune of racing as it will become more affordable to buy quality horses and the incentive for the top end to go to the shed will be lessened.
Like it or not politics plays a huge part in the sports future, now more than ever, and Keeneland is not who we should be afraid of.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Top class California racing has fallen off markedly in the past few years.

A few very key big-name owners, who buy expensive yearlings, aren't around anymore---and many of the top South American horses that would be imported to Southern California, are now being bought up to run in Dubai and Suadi Arabai.

The years of South American horses running 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in races like the Santa Anita Handicap and Hollywood Gold Cup are over. If you look at last years UAE Derby, you had Simpatico Bribon, Gold For Sale, and Invasor--three horses, who in years past, probably would have found their way to California into a barn of a Dick Mandella, Ron Mcanallly, Eduardo Inda, or Bobby Frankel.

There have been several big performances by South Ameican invaders (many at a price) in this years Dubai Racing Carnival.

I'm not so sure if the rush to install polytrack at all California racetracks, wasn't in some part, an attempt to improve the quantity and quality of horses on the grounds.

[The Bid]

Alysia, top class
Zorin, nice
Impossible Ski, real serious
Eu Tambem, the goods
Fala Masa, Monster
Artic Sun, freak


THese are all serious horses in SA......Eu Tambem was bought up for 1.5
Impossible ski is tagged for 700
Alysai is 600 plus
Artic is beign shopped to Dubia

I dont see anyone jumping in to buy these South Americans anymore. Too many guys get burned.

Fot those who complain about Poly at Turfway, look at the numbers between dirt and Poly. The numbers aren't comparable. And I was one that voted to cancel the racing over the weekend at Turfway and I even had a horse entered for today. There much more than goes into cancelling a card that what people think. I am not blinded and don't think the track condition didn't play into my thought process, but for the most part it is because of the possibility of dangerous winds and cold temps. Better safe than sorry. Tons of money is lost when a trainer ships a horse and then the card is cancelled. Also it costs employees time when they are sent home and the operating costs go through the roof when you cancel a card mid-way.

[The Bid]

The three horses vanned off had nothing to do with the cancel then?

Did the three horses last night get vanned off because of high winds, or because it was too cold?