Cleveland Indians

[Mortimer]

I didn't see any of the game.

I can't afford a tv is why.





But I can't discuss Here's Jhonny with you. ...you think he's a swell defensive ss and I think he's from hell defensively.Let others decide.

[Storm Cadet]

There's more Indians stuff here than in the Cleveland Plains Dealer!

[Mortimer]

That's because they let Terry Neptune talk about 78 different things in his 25 alloted columns.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Scav

WTF is wrong with Victory Martinez, he really needs to hit some HR's Morty. I have him in HR Derby and he is my ANCHOR!!!

I don't know what that is,but he's a 20-25 guy. Not a premier power hitter.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

I didn't see any of the game.

I can't afford a tv is why.





But I can't discuss Here's Jhonny with you. ...you think he's a swell defensive ss and I think he's from hell defensively.Let others decide.

No, I never said swell. I said he is an average to slightly above average defensive shortstop is what I said...a far cry from hell defensively. His defense is rarely....if ever a hindrance to the team's winning. I do agree that Cabrera would certainly be a better full time "defensive" player at the position by a lot. At worst, however, I think Peralta is a .270/ 20-25 home run guy...so he'd have to be "really" bad defensively to send him away...and he simply isn't a "really" bad defensive player despite your's and Bid's ramblings.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

No, I never said swell. I said he is an average to slightly above average defensive shortstop is what I said...a far cry from hell defensively. His defense is rarely....if ever a hindrance to the team's winning. I agree that Cabrera would certainly be a better full time "defensive" player at the position by a lot. At worst, however, I think Peralta is a .270/ 20-25 home run guy...so he'd have to be "really" bad defensively to send him away...and he simply isn't a "really" bad defensive player despite your's and Bid's ramblings.

Don't you ever get off it?


He IS bad defensively...watch him fer Gosh sakes...he's bad mainly because of all the balls he can't get to. ...and you're not exactly quoting huge offensive numbers there. SS is a DEFENSIVE position...the most important one in fair territory. The Indians don't understand that and neither do you.

[Mortimer]

And where the fucl< do you get ''at worst"????



That's his BEST over the last 2 years and the rate he is going this year!!

[horseofcourse]

HE gets to plenty of balls and has a very good arm. His assists, putouts, DPs are in the upper tier every single year. He simply is not a bad defensive player. You are like the LeBron witnesses...they see no wrong...there are Peralta witnesses who have taken to the theory that he is the worst defensive player ever and it simply is not true...or even close to that...the same thing you criticize witnesses for you do EXACTLY the same thing with Peralta. He made an excellent defensive play in the 9th inning of a tie game and it played a key part in a win. Your response to that?? you don't have a TV...excellent. Yet somehow you watch him play. Of course I always lie so what I said couldn't be true. Would Cabrera be a better defensive player there...of course. I think you lose a lot more offense with Barfield instead of Peralta than defense playing Cabrera at short and Barfield at 2nd. IN other words, I think you're losing more offense than what you may be gaining defensively with Barfield at 2nd and Cabrera at short. The Indians had the best record in baseball last year with Peralta playing short. They really did. So his defense cost them what??? Who was their best hitter in post season last year??

Exactly.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

And where the fucl< do you get ''at worst"????



That's his BEST over the last 2 years and the rate he is going this year!!

That's simply an opinion. I'm averaging his last THREE years. You conveniently ignore 2005 which is fine if you want to do that.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

That's simply an opinion. I'm averaging his last THREE years. You conveniently ignore 2005 which is fine if you want to do that.

In other words he's getting WORSE!

You act like he won the fucl<in' triple crown in '05.



You are truly the idiot you purport to be here.Many,many,many people ( writers included) think Peralta is a bad defensive ss ....a BAD defensive ss. He cannot get to balls a good ss would get to. He fogs out upstairs.....he does have a strong arm and turns the dp well....but HE HAS NO RANGE.



HE HAS NO RANGE......and he will not charge ground balls....he backs up on them and turns out into hits or errors.

You really are the biggest imbecile I have ever met.


Unbelieveable.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

HE gets to plenty of balls and has a very good arm. His assists, putouts, DPs are in the upper tier every single year. He simply is not a bad defensive player. You are like the LeBron witnesses...they see no wrong...there are Peralta witnesses who have taken to the theory that he is the worst defensive player ever and it simply is not true...or even close to that...the same thing you criticize witnesses for you do EXACTLY the same thing with Peralta. He made an excellent defensive play in the 9th inning of a tie game and it played a key part in a win. Your response to that?? you don't have a TV...excellent. Yet somehow you watch him play. Of course I always lie so what I said couldn't be true. Would Cabrera be a better defensive player there...of course. I think you lose a lot more offense with Barfield instead of Peralta than defense playing Cabrera at short and Barfield at 2nd. IN other words, I think you're losing more offense than what you may be gaining defensively with Barfield at 2nd and Cabrera at short. The Indians had the best record in baseball last year with Peralta playing short. They really did. So his defense cost them what??? Who was their best hitter in post season last year??

Exactly.

Your arguments are pathetic..they really are.



Why did they do so poorly in '06 then? He was the ss...right?


EXACTLY.

They got as far as they did because of their pitching last year.When it went south...so did the Indians.The hitting was bad the last third of the year...it continues now,although the pitching looks like it just may well be as good as last year.

They had a chance to tighten up the defense and they just won't do it.

[Mortimer]

I'm wondering if BrownSugar has one of those false bottom horsey caskets ??

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

In other words he's getting WORSE!

You act like he won the fucl<in' triple crown in '05.



You are truly the idiot you purport to be here.Many,many,many people ( writers included) think Peralta is a bad defensive ss ....a BAD defensive ss. He cannot get to balls a good ss would get to. He fogs out upstairs.....he does have a strong arm and turns the dp well....but HE HAS NO RANGE.



HE HAS NO RANGE......and he will not charge ground balls....he backs up on them and turns out into hits or errors.

You really are the biggest imbecile I have ever met.


Unbelieveable.

Fine. Your'e all wrong. He is not bad. He is at worst an average defensive shortstop. You have never met me sir. I'm simply the biggest imbecile you've ever read on an internet board. Let's not get carried away here.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

Your arguments are pathetic..they really are.



Why did they do so poorly in '06 then? He was the ss...right?


EXACTLY.

They got as far as they did because of their pitching last year.When it went south...so did the Indians.The hitting was bad the last third of the year...it continues now,although the pitching looks like it just may well be as good as last year.

They had a chance to tighten up the defense and they just won't do it.

My point being his defense is not the determining factor in their winning or losing. This post just supports everything I've said. Thank you. they had great pitching in 2005 and nearly made post season. The bullpen was wretched in 2006 and they lost, their pitching was great last year and they were in the playoffs.

In essence, Peralta's defense really plays no part in anything...it doesn't really hurt or help them at all...(despite the terrific play in the 9th yesterday!!) Which is what I've been saying all along. Thank you for finally agreeing with me here. At last.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Fine. Your'e all wrong. He is not bad. He is at worst an average defensive shortstop. You have never met me sir. I'm simply the biggest imbecile you've ever read on an internet board. Let's not get carried away here.

Fair enough....but you do upset me , and that is hard to do, when you tell me the emperor is clothed.

To say Here'sJhonny is at worst an average defensive ss,in your opinion........well I'm not going to say it,but I will make a prediction.



SOMEONE is going to wake up...and it may not be Shapiro or "Wedgie" ...and they will get this guy out of the position located between 2nd and 3rd or ship him out of here and Cabrera will be the ss.



I do think it will be before next season starts.




I'm going to end the HJ back and forth now and leave it at that.

[horseofcourse]

I like the kid and have from day one. He is what he is. He was replacing a legend...a near impossible task and in 2005 he had a great year and played a huge part in their return to respectability. Shapiro made him the scapegoat of the poor 2006 season which I thought was insane. IT was apparent to even an imebcile like me the problem was the bullpen without question...not Peralta's D. You can find zone charts...zone ranking percentages whatever you want. He was scapegoated by management, they alledgedly got him glasses and crap and made it seem how much he improved last year. He didn't. He was the same as he ever was. He hit better in 2007 without question, but his defense is what it is. His range is not great at all but is better than the Yankees legend currently playing there, and he seems to do ok for the most part.

I have never heard Peralta say one word...cause one problem on the team ever. He never complains. He just goes and plays. He is an easy guy for me to root for. I dont' like to see guys scapegoated as he was after the 2006 season unfairly. He is not a great player and never will be. He has many weaknesses...he can not hold up on 2 strike breaking pitches low and outside...his range isn't great as noted. But he has good power...is a fairly patient hitter seeing plenty of pitches per at bat, and turns the DP with aplomb. HE's just an easy guy for me to like...sort of like Sizemore who also has plenty of weaknesses but people tend to ignore those...he can go get fly balls, but has a poor arm...he also strikes out a ton and doesn't hit for a high average like Peralta...Grady does walk an absolute ton making up for his high K totals. But he also just goes and plays and give 115 percent 162 games a year. Also an easy guy to like.

But PEralta's defensive weakness legend is beyond crazy. He will never win a gold glove...but come on...are you guys serious??

I am a fan of the INdians. I like Peralta. Sue me.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Avery_Smartman

Fair enough....but you do upset me , and that is hard to do, when you tell me the emperor is clothed.

To say Here'sJhonny is at worst an average defensive ss,in your opinion........well I'm not going to say it,but I will make a prediction.



SOMEONE is going to wake up...and it may not be Shapiro or "Wedgie" ...and they will get this guy out of the position located between 2nd and 3rd or ship him out of here and Cabrera will be the ss.



I do think it will be before next season starts.




I'm going to end the HJ back and forth now and leave it at that.

IN the end I think it will happen in the off season. Blake is done after this year...he has priced himself out of Clveland. It will be quite easy to then put Peralta at third, and Cabrera at short and see if Barfield has any offensive skills left. It will not happen this year unless they are completely out of it.

[horseofcourse]

Balls gotten to by shortstops....(putouts plus assists divided by innings played). Peralta's American League rankings...

2005...6th
2006...1st
2007...2nd
2008...4th.

[Mortimer]

God.


Blake has not priced himself out...Blake has not priced himself out.

The Indians signed him to one year.It was their choice...not his. The Indians have priced him out.He shouldn't be there now,but thanks to the Phillips debacle they still keep compounding that huge boneheaded move.

I'm not going to read your reply for a long time because I know it's going to be dumb.


Honest...I can't take you anymore!

[horseofcourse]

In essence here is what Peralta costs them. Zone rating is the pre-eminent stat used now. It is percentage of balls successfully fielded in the shortstop range. Peralta is always at or near the bottom in that stat. He was quite good in 2005. He hovers right at 80 percent for 3 years now though. That is not good. Generally in a full season 85 percent is a great number for a shortstop. The last 4 years under 10 per year in MLB reach that number. 5 to 8 is the total of full time shortstops per year get to that number. Occasionally you'll get a guy near 90 percent (Vizquel, everett, Tulowitski...), but lets call 85 percent a standard for a guy with excellent range.

Generally the Indians get 460 balls or therabouts in the shortstop's ground ball range. This means Peralta gets to about 370 of them. A shortstop in the 85 percent range if they had that would get to around 390 of them per year. So in a full year the difference between a shortstop with great range and Peralta is 20 base runners per year. How many of those score?? About 40 percent of base runners score in the major leagues...I'll be generous and call it that for you. It is generally under that, but for easy math I'll call it 40 percent. So 8 of those 20 extra base runners will score. How many of those 8 runs scored will come in 1 run losses costing them a game?? I'll be very generous and call it 20 percent...meaning at most 1.6 of those extra base runners will cost them a game.

So in essence the difference between Peralta at short, and one of the best in the league at short is 1 or 2 games a year Peralta's D costs them which is how they can win 96 games with a poor range shortstop playing for them. Which is how the Yankees are in post season year after year with a similarly poor range shortstop. It really in all honesty doesn't mean much at all. This takes nothing into account of offense, 2 out hitting etc.

Math...study...investigate...consider. It is not all about bombast. Bombast on internet boards doesnt' decide baseball games. Playing them does. A shortstop zone range of 60 percent costs you...70 percent costs you. 80 percent??? Really doesn't cost you all that much. It does cost, but it is so minimal that generally it means nothing. If the Indians miss the playoffs by 1 game ever, then you can talk about Peralta's D costing them (in '05 Peralta was at around 85 percent so no...he was near the top in MLB that year...didn't cost them a playoff appearance!!...he has fallen considerably from that the last 3 years however, so his 80 percent seasons resulted in nowhere near playoffs and actual playoffs). Until they finish 1 game out of a playoff birth, Peralta's D means pretty much zero in the grand scheme of INdians baseball. Your bombast is meaningless in reality.

Mathematics my friend. Simple concepts. It ain't brain surgery.

So Avery, even using the absolute worst statistic Peralta has at shortstop...the dreaded zone rating...he costs them one game a year on defense. I am accepting his badness at defense and using what he is worst at on defense...range. And it all adds up to a game. You're the man!! Your points are nearly flawless as always it appears!!

(I'm so good I scare myself!! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!)