When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Rupert you seem to leave out in every post that the punk wanna be cop Zimmerman was following Martin in a car and by foot, and kept following him even when told not to.

if anyone would have had reason to protect their own self, it would be Martin.

and nobody can dispute Zimmermans claim of self defense?? well maybe that is because the 2nd party in this situation is DEAD at the hands of Zimmerman. Cant really tell your side when you are buried under the earth, can you?

but no.. poor Zimmerman, has to go through all this trouble. He should have thought about that before he tried to act like a cop and follow a kid with a loaded gun.

Zimmerman is a prick. If he doesnt go to jail for even a few years, it will be a grave injustice.


It disgusts me that people stick up for Zimmerman.

I'm well aware that Zimmerman followed Martin in his car and on foot. I discussed that in several of my previous posts.

On the one hand, you could argue that Martin had the right to defend himself from some stranger who was following him. On the other hand, why didn't Martin call the police? You seem to be against vigilantiism. If you see a person following you, should you call the police or should you physically attack the person instead?

No matter what, if Zimmerman was walking back to his car and was attacked from behind, then Martin had no justification for the assault.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Rupert you seem to leave out in every post that the punk wanna be cop Zimmerman was following Martin in a car and by foot, and kept following him even when told not to.

if anyone would have had reason to protect their own self, it would be Martin.

and nobody can dispute Zimmermans claim of self defense?? well maybe that is because the 2nd party in this situation is DEAD at the hands of Zimmerman. Cant really tell your side when you are buried under the earth, can you?

but no.. poor Zimmerman, has to go through all this trouble. He should have thought about that before he tried to act like a cop and follow a kid with a loaded gun.

Zimmerman is a prick. If he doesnt go to jail for even a few years, it will be a grave injustice.


It disgusts me that people stick up for Zimmerman.

I will repost one of my previous posts about this subject:

Based on everything I have heard so far, Zimmerman had done a good job helping to watch the neighborhood and keep the neighborhood safe for several years. This was an unfortunate incident. Hindsight is 20/20. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Neighborhood watch programs (formal and informal) work. They reduce crime.

I highly doubt Zimmerman intended to get into any type of physical altercation. I think there is a good chance that he never intended to get within 50 yards of Martin. But he lost him on foot and at some point I think he turned a corner and found himself in close proximity to Martin. It was probably a fluke thing. We don't know for sure what happened after that. Zimmerman claims they had words but then the words ended and he was walking back to his car when he was attacked from behind.

Hindsight is 20/20 but as I said before, I highly doubt Zimmerman had any plans of getting into close proximity with Martin. If he was just some type of vigilante, why did he even bother calling the police? If he thought he was just some tough guy, he would have probably just pulled up to Martin in his car and rolled down his window and asked, "Who are you and what are you doing in this neighborhood?" But he didn't do this. He called the police. I think the whole thing was an unfortunate incident. I wouldn't recommend following someone on foot because if you lose them there is always the chance that you could end up face to face with them after turning a corner. I don't think Zimmerman ever dreamed that he would be jumped from behind (if that is in fact what happened).

I'm sure Zimmerman had followed people hundreds of times over the years (while doing his informal neigborhood watches) without incident. This incident was an aberration.

[Rupert Pupkin]

The Sanford Police Chief resigned today. But the Sanford city commisioners (by a 3-2 majority vote) have rejected his resignation. They don't want him to leave. They blame the uproar surrounding Martin's death on "outsiders".

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...180637247.html

[Antitrust32]

again, I dont believe Zimmerman intentionally set out to murder Martin. Thats why I disagree with Murder 2. I think manslaughter is appropriate, though I'm no legal expert.

But Zimmerman was the instigator, he even kept following Martin after he was told not to, and a 17 year old teenager was shot dead by Zimmermans gun and Zimmerman pulled the trigger. You cant follow someone, kill someone and go unpunished.

We not debating the merits of neighborhood watch program. I'm sure they are effective when used properly. Zimmerman is a paranoid cop wanna be, I feel like he is certainly a danger to society.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Watch Zimmerman ask for a speedy trial (which he should) and he'll get acquitted. Then riots.

yay.

No need to wait.

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/2...on-ar-3659891/

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by OldDog

No need to wait.

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/2...on-ar-3659891/

thats terrible. I hope all 20 people are found and convicted of attempted murder. Send them away for life for all I care.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Reuters did an exhaustive investigation into Zimmerman. The investigation answers a lot of questions that many of you may have wondered about such as why Zimmerman got a gun, why Zimmerman was asked by neighbors to become the neighborhood watch captain, what types of incidents was Zimmerman involved with in the past in his role as neighborhood watch captain, how neighbors felt about Zimmerman, what types of crimes had been occurring in the neighborhood, what is the racial makeup of the homeowners in the neighborhood, etc.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83O18H20120425

[Antitrust32]

Thank god Zimmerman does not live in my town, Ocala. Half the town would have been shot dead by now.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Reuters did an exhaustive investigation into Zimmerman. The investigation answers a lot of questions that many of you may have wondered about such as why Zimmerman got a gun, why Zimmerman was asked by neighbors to become the neighborhood watch captain, what types of incidents was Zimmerman involved with in the past in his role as neighborhood watch captain, how neighbors felt about Zimmerman, what types of crimes had been occurring in the neighborhood, what is the racial makeup of the homeowners in the neighborhood, etc.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83O18H20120425

none of that really matters. had he not followed, ignoring the 911 operator, this thread wouldn't even exist. the shooting wouldn't have occurred.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

none of that really matters. had he not followed, ignoring the 911 operator, this thread wouldn't even exist. the shooting wouldn't have occurred.

People in neighborhood watch programs follow people every day. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. It saves property and lives.

On your other point, if a police officer gives you an order, you have to follow it or there is a good chance you will get arrested. When a 911 operator advises you, "We don't need you to do that", that is advice. That is not an order. A person is not compelled by law to follow that advice.

In this case, in hindsight we know that Zimmerman should have followed the advice of the 911 operator. As you said, the incident would not have happened had Zimmerman taken the advice. Hindsight is 20/20. But I'm sure there are hundreds of similar situations that happen across the country every year, where there is a different ending. The neighborhood watch person follows the suspect until the police arrive, and the suspect ends up being arrested (because they turned out to be a criminal), or released because the police determine that there was no criminal intent on the part of the suspect.

It's easy to second-guess Zimmerman in hindsight, after you know that this was the one case in a thousand, where there was a bad ending. But what about the other thousand of cases a year (where a neighborhood watch person follows a person until the police arrive), and there is a happy ending?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

People in neighborhood watch programs follow people every day. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. It saves property and lives.

On your other point, if a police officer gives you an order, you have to follow it or there is a good chance you will get arrested. When a 911 operator advises you, "We don't need you to do that", that is advice. That is not an order. A person is not compelled by law to follow that advice.

In this case, in hindsight we know that Zimmerman should have followed the advice of the 911 operator. As you said, the incident would not have happened had Zimmerman taken the advice. Hindsight is 20/20. But I'm sure there are hundreds of similar situations that happen across the country every year, where there is a different ending. The neighborhood watch person follows the suspect until the police arrive, and the suspect ends up being arrested (because they turned out to be a criminal), or released because the police determine that there was no criminal intent on the part of the suspect.

It's easy to second-guess Zimmerman in hindsight, after you know that this was the one case in a thousand, where there was a bad ending. But what about the other thousand of cases a year (where a neighborhood watch person follows a person until the police arrive), and there is a happy ending?

bullshit. it's called neighborhood WATCH. not follow, not get out of your car, not apprehend, not play cop, just watch. he was specifically told not to follow. not only did he do so, he then left his car and followed on foot. all of it against what they told him to do, all of it not what neighborhood watch is supposed to do. you see something, you all the people trained to handle it. you don't try to handle it yourself.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

bullshit. it's called neighborhood WATCH. not follow, not get out of your car, not apprehend, not play cop, just watch. he was specifically told not to follow. not only did he do so, he then left his car and followed on foot. all of it against what they told him to do, all of it not what neighborhood watch is supposed to do. you see something, you all the people trained to handle it. you don't try to handle it yourself.

Three months ago, before this incident happened, I bet that if I would have done a story about aggressive neighborhood watch programs that were cutting crime way down in their neighborhoods, I bet you would have been all for it.

If I would have told you about some neighborhoods where there was a lot of crime, that there was an aggressive neighborhood watch program where the members were armed and they followed the suspects until the police got there, and the program was really effective, I bet you would have been all for it.

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Thank god Zimmerman does not live in my town, Ocala. Half the town would have been shot dead by now.

Agree with you on the first sentence. Not sure where you're coming from in the second.

I don't live in Ocala proper, but around 15 miles away on a small horse farm in "horse country." Not much crime here, except for the occasional domestic dispute. You must be referring to the Shores, or the Forest, or maybe the area around 40 downtown.

You do know, of course, that local neighborhood watch programs are very highly regulated around town. None are armed, none are ever supposed to follow anyone, and all are supposed to report anything suspicious to the police/sheriff.

[Riot]

You may remember this story about Jean Kalonji and his wife Angelica, the purchaser of a foreclosed home in Newton County GA. While changing the locks on their new home, they were threatened and held at gunpoint by two of their white neighbors.

When the local sheriff deputies arrived they arrested the Kalonjis without checking to find out if they were the homeowners, and took no action against the men who threatened and assaulted Jean and Angelica with their firearms and held them against their will for no apparent reason other than that 61 year-old Jean Kalonji was black.

Well, it seems the Newton County Sheriff's Department has had a change of heart about the actions of these two vigilantes (though the Kalonji's lawyer's meeting with the Sheriff and the local DA on Monday may have helped clarify the situation for them).

Yesterday, Robert Canoles and his son, Branden, were taken into custody and charged with "aggravated assault, false imprisonment and criminal trespass."

Frankly I am surprised, but also grateful that the Newton County authorities reversed themselves and made the proper decision to charge these two morons.

These idiots took it upon themselves to assault a 61 year old black man and his 57 year old white spouse and cause them to fear for their lives merely for lawfully occupying their own property.

Nonetheless, shamefully, both men reacted with defiance and an utter lack of remorse at what they had done to these two innocent people.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...2nd-Amendment-

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...2nd-Amendment-

I thought you didn't like partisan news sources. You are constantly bashing Fox for being partisan but you seem to love getting news from left-wing sites. I don't get it.

With regard to this story, if this is the worst thing that ever happens in this country, I think we're in pretty good shape. I think the thousands of people getting robbed, beaten, and murdered in this country is a slightly more serious problem than what happened in this case. It was an unfortunate misunderstanding but at least nobody got hurt.

I was dog-sitting for my brother about 5 months ago. He lives about 35 miles from me. I decided to go for a run around his neighborhood. I was doing my regular run/walk when I noticed a police car following me. Then another police car came. They finally pulled in front of me and got out of their car. They said that they had gotten a couple of calls about me. They claimed that people said I appeared to be walking sort of aimlessly and it looked like I might be lost. The police wanted to know who I was, what I was doing there, etc.

I was a combination of slightly amused and slightly annoyed. Why in the world would anyone think I looked suspicious and/or menacing? I'm 5'9 and weigh 145 pounds. I guess it was just one of those things when you're in a neighborhood that you don't live. You just don't quite look like you fit in. I've never been pulled over running in my neighborhood.

Anyway, I didn't give the cops any attitude. I was extremely friendly and cooperative. I answered all their questions. I told them my name. I gave them my address. I told them what I was doing there. They thanked me and I was on my way.

I know this isn't nearly as bad as what some people go through. They didn't pull a gun on me or anything like that. But I could have still gotten mad and told them they had no right to question me. I was minding my own business. I didn't break any laws. But I didn't get mad. I figured the bottom line was that they had good intentions. They were just trying to protect the neighborhood.

I'd rather have a neighborhood where residents and police are conscientious and are looking out for the residents than a neighborhood where nobody cares.

By the way, the crimes they charged the people with in that case are a joke. They charged them with "aggravated assault, false imprisonment, and criminal trespass". Are they kidding? Those people didn't have any criminal intent. They may be stupid and they obviously don't know the law. But they had good intentions. They thought their neighbor's house was being burglarized. Why would you charge those people with the same crimes that you would charge real criminals with, who actually break into a house with criminal intent and hold people against their will? It's absurd. They should be charged with some type of simple misdemeanor related to improper brandishing of a gun. If the Kalonjis want to sue them for $25,000 for their trouble, that would be fine too. But to charge these people as if they had criminal intent is beyond absurd.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Three months ago, before this incident happened, I bet that if I would have done a story about aggressive neighborhood watch programs that were cutting crime way down in their neighborhoods, I bet you would have been all for it.

If I would have told you about some neighborhoods where there was a lot of crime, that there was an aggressive neighborhood watch program where the members were armed and they followed the suspects until the police got there, and the program was really effective, I bet you would have been all for it.

and i bet you'd be wrong. i'm all for people defending their home, their life-i am not for vigilantes at all. you have every right to DEFEND yourself-not go after someone like some g--d--- charles bronson character from a movie.

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i bet you'd be wrong. i'm all for people defending their home, their life-i am not for vigilantes at all. you have every right to DEFEND yourself-not go after someone like some g--d--- charles bronson character from a movie.

Huh? That is exactly what he was doing. He was defending his "village". And how do we know for sure if he was acting like Charles Bronson? That seems to me like a stretch to add oomph to your point.

He has every right to defend his property and the property of his neighbors if they allow it. That's what liberty is all about.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Huh? That is exactly what he was doing. He was defending his "village". And how do we know for sure if he was acting like Charles Bronson? That seems to me like a stretch to add oomph to your point.

He has every right to defend his property and the property of his neighbors if they allow it. That's what liberty is all about.

he wasn't defending, he actively sought a confrontation with someone who was doing nothing more than walking home from a convenience store. did zimmerman know where he'd just left? no. was martin doing anything more than walking? no. since when does someone walking through your neighborhood become something to attack? what was suspicious about him being a pedestrian? what fear was engendered? exactly what life or property was zimmerman defending? and against what? a teenager armed with skittles and a drink. there was no activity until zimmerman escalated a stranger walking down the street into an issue. there was no issue until zimmerman, and his active imagination, created an issue.


i know all of the people who live in my immediate vicinity. if i see someone who isn't a neighbor, i take note. do i grab a gun? no. do i follow? no. should i? no. if they commit an overt act i would call the police and take note of what they look like, their car, what they're wearing, perhaps get a plate number if i can. but i sure wouldn't take it upon myself to judge, based on someone walking, whether they are up to no good. nor would i go after them. that is no longer defense, that's offense.

boy, you'd think a person as skilled at neighborhood watch as zimmerman would know that martin was a guest of a resident of his village. his 'village' is not his home, not his property.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

Agree with you on the first sentence. Not sure where you're coming from in the second.

I don't live in Ocala proper, but around 15 miles away on a small horse farm in "horse country." Not much crime here, except for the occasional domestic dispute. You must be referring to the Shores, or the Forest, or maybe the area around 40 downtown.

You do know, of course, that local neighborhood watch programs are very highly regulated around town. None are armed, none are ever supposed to follow anyone, and all are supposed to report anything suspicious to the police/sheriff.

yes.. shores, marion oaks, downtown, and the area I live in (475A & 312).. I've read about more violent crime in Ocala the past 5 years I've lived here than any other place I've lived. plus Ocala is robbery central. The horse farms are great and beautiful and safe! But the dense population area's are low income with a pretty good crime rate.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

People in neighborhood watch programs follow people every day. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. It saves property and lives.

On your other point, if a police officer gives you an order, you have to follow it or there is a good chance you will get arrested. When a 911 operator advises you, "We don't need you to do that", that is advice. That is not an order. A person is not compelled by law to follow that advice.

In this case, in hindsight we know that Zimmerman should have followed the advice of the 911 operator. As you said, the incident would not have happened had Zimmerman taken the advice. Hindsight is 20/20. But I'm sure there are hundreds of similar situations that happen across the country every year, where there is a different ending. The neighborhood watch person follows the suspect until the police arrive, and the suspect ends up being arrested (because they turned out to be a criminal), or released because the police determine that there was no criminal intent on the part of the suspect.

It's easy to second-guess Zimmerman in hindsight, after you know that this was the one case in a thousand, where there was a bad ending. But what about the other thousand of cases a year (where a neighborhood watch person follows a person until the police arrive), and there is a happy ending?

the past means nothing. the neighborhood watch means nothing. The dead kid is what this is all about. And taking the law into your own hands with a firearm.

It would be a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY if Martin was shot while breaking into someone's home. That wasnt the case. He was innocently walking home to his dads house, thats all. If he threw some punches because he was sticking up for himself for being followed by some cop wanna be looney toon, that still does NOT give Zimmerman the right to kill the teenager.