Pletcher@#$@$%

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cardus

The word that I use on days like this, when Pletcher looks like he is emceeing the day's broadcast, is embarrassing.

It's embarrassing that he wins race after race on these big days.

I agree, it leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I just don't think its good for racing either to have this huge super trainer winning, whatever it is 50 - 80 million dollars per year.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I agree, it leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I just don't think its good for racing either to have this huge super trainer winning, whatever it is 50 - 80 million dollars per year.

His mentor Lukas use to do it...well maybe 25 - 40 million back then

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by golfer

I realize I'm not looking at this objectively, and the wounds he inflicted are still open, but does anybody else find what Pletcher did today to be outrageous.. I'm thinking of asking for a refund from Thorograph, because Pletcher's horses rendered them meaningless!!! I realize he's got great horses, but THIS was ABSURD! Please let me know if I'm the only one who feels this way.

Chalk trainers like this will be stuffing chalk down your throat until they die,or you die(or until you stop following racing.)Your eyes aren't deceiving you(their horses often don't feel fatigue.)

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Doesn't it make you happy that Pletcher isn't based at Arlington?

You know I never thought about it until you said that, but yes it does.
We already have one mini-super trainer over here, Catalano, but he mainly deals in the claimers. Its not like he is sweeping all the stakes races.

[Scav]

And when Pletcher horses ship here they get grossly overbet, he hasn't won too many here actually...I am not even going to go on my English Channel tirade

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

You know I never thought about it until you said that, but yes it does.
We already have one mini-super trainer over here, Catalano, but he mainly deals in the claimers. Its not like he is sweeping all the stakes races.

AND he's beatable in some of those claiming races. If you pick your spots right, there is a ton of money to be made betting against the Calabrese/Catalano horse in Arlington sellers.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

AND he's beatable in some of those claiming races. If you pick your spots right, there is a ton of money to be made betting against the Calabrese/Catalano horse in Arlington sellers.

Oh hell yes. I spend the whole meet playing against low priced Calabrese/Catalano runners.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Oh hell yes. I spend the whole meet playing against low priced Calabrese/Catalano runners.

lol, not me, I love pain

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

lol, not me, I love pain

you secretly unload on Laviolette several times a week, thats where you find your pain.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cardus

It's funny that you mentioned Catalano. I was going to ask you if he fits the "Super Trainer" profile. I know that he wins a lot for Calabrese.

Not much for him between Crypto Star and Dreaming of Anna in terms of national exposure, right? (He does train Dreaming of Anna, no?)

He doesn't exactly fit the mold of a super trainer, like a Pletcher. he is just a local high percentage guy. They do a lot of claiming and then they drop the horse in class and try to win several races before they are claimed away.

The success rate of horses that are claimed off of him is not good. In fact, they almost never win back.

Yes he does train Dreaming of Anna.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

you secretly unload on Laviolette several times a week, thats where you find your pain.

LOL, hilarious....I am real pissed at myself for not even mentioning that ridiculous guy on DT Live today. Byk needs to start having the Laviolette Allowance O-Meter at ATRAB studios. I am guessing he is 1-76 in allowance races this meet at Arlington. maybe 2-76 because of Polytrack.

I will admit that I did use him last meet, I am actually discipline enough not to put win money on him, but when he does win, it ruins alot of things going on, and multiple f'bombs get dropped and the ever so fun buying a new program becuase of the wrath and force it gets chucked into cement.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

He doesn't exactly fit the mold of a super trainer, like a Pletcher. he is just a local high percentage guy. They do a lot of claiming and then they drop the horse in class and try to win several races before they are claimed away.

The success rate of horses that are claimed off of him is not good. In fact, they almost never win back.

Yes he does train Dreaming of Anna.

I do think that they spot their horses really really well. And you need to keep some of these angles HUSH...the Catalano off angle has been solid for a couple years now, it is almost as solid as Laviolette off is at Arlington

[Withers]

Heck, shouldn't we be giving Pletcher's assistant trainers all the credit here? After all, Pletcher hasn't even been around until the last couple of weeks, due to the suspension, right? I just wish he were a bit more colorful/charismatic. Leno should put Pletcher on and try to get the guy to be a bit more humorous. I still think that trainers like Baffert (Mr. Colorful, and that hair!), Frankel (Brooklyn Jerk), Servis (Mr. Everyman), Tagg (Pessimism Incarnate), or Ritchey (with his hearty 2 mile gallops) are all better for the sport than Pletcher with his 34 colts at 12 gazillion tracks: "Huh? which one is that bay out there Anthony/Seth/Michelle/Tristan?" OK, that's not fair, I bet he recognizes the colts and their corresponding deposits on his bank statements, but still...200 horses? 5 assistant trainers? I'm undoubtedly jealous, guy's still under 40, right? I'm just saying that the guys is an excellent MANAGER at this point (of owners and his assistants), more than an amazing trainer; I really doubt that he sees much of the horses. Aaaaaah, sweet success...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Not on freaking A.P. Arrow.

A.P. Arrow was as washed as I've ever seen on a horse... colt was beyond "worked up."

[PSH]

Gets back to the question i have been struggling for these past few years. Are these high percentage trainers (Pletcher, Frankel, Dutrows, etc.) high percentage trainers because: a) they simply get the best horses b) are doing something more than their lower trainer percentage counterparts - extra vitamins, better water, or whatever else that they can afford from their higher day rates or, c) they are not playing on a level playing field (CHEATING!)

or is it a combination of all three depending on who we are talking about....

How does a mid-teen percentage trainer like Contessa all of the sudden turn into a higher percentage trainer? Is it simply the winter track at Aqueduct and a good part of his competition is gone?

How does a high percentage trainer like Pletcher all of the sudden go cold like he did at Saratoga in 2005 after the first few days? There was a rumor that Mrs. Whitney had a security guard placed at his barn... Can not believe that one....

Just makes one wonder...

PSH

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

A.P. Arrow was as washed as I've ever seen on a horse... colt was beyond "worked up."

And he still would've won with ease without that ride.

[golfer]

It's nice to be back.. this thread might have 200 posts by now if not for the server problem. I'm going by my own evaluation, not statistics, but I don't believe the Sciametta firsters at Gulf were winning at a high percentage. Yesterday he finishes 1/2 with 2 firsters.. and who still thinks uncoupling is a good thing? With 2 or 3 in a race, we basically have to guess which one runs (I guessed wrong in the Hutchison).

Steve, I saw your post on the Thorograph board, what say you on this?

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Your eyes aren't deceiving you(their horses often don't feel fatigue.)

And Pletcher's horses appear not to fatigue because he...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PSH

Gets back to the question i have been struggling for these past few years. Are these high percentage trainers (Pletcher, Frankel, Dutrows, etc.) high percentage trainers because: a) they simply get the best horses b) are doing something more than their lower trainer percentage counterparts - extra vitamins, better water, or whatever else that they can afford from their higher day rates or, c) they are not playing on a level playing field (CHEATING!)

or is it a combination of all three depending on who we are talking about....

How does a mid-teen percentage trainer like Contessa all of the sudden turn into a higher percentage trainer? Is it simply the winter track at Aqueduct and a good part of his competition is gone?

How does a high percentage trainer like Pletcher all of the sudden go cold like he did at Saratoga in 2005 after the first few days? There was a rumor that Mrs. Whitney had a security guard placed at his barn... Can not believe that one....

Just makes one wonder...

PSH

I think that all of your variables are a factor. First off they have so many horses and owners that they only have to race horses when everything is perfect. If you have 5 horses for the same condition you just run the one that gives you the best chance of winning. That ability can make you very strong as a trainer. Same as a big claiming trainer who is likely to have more than one horse for each price. He can drop them and raise them with impunity because he already has a replacement if they get claimed.
Guys like Pletcher and Dutrow are spending a whole lot more on vets than most trainers because they dont care if the owners bitch or take the horses. That is not to say that all or any extra vet work will help. Slow horses are slow horses and the fact is that no vet work or vitamins will help. Believe me if you could "vet work" your way to the winners circle, we would all do it. Dont forget that these guys like Pletcher, Dutrow, etc more often than not have one of the best horses in the race, they rarely run real longshots which will help your %'s.
The fact that nothing ever changes when these guys get 30-60 day suspensions says a lot. If you havea lot of really good horses and a good program you will win, period.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that all of your variables are a factor. First off they have so many horses and owners that they only have to race horses when everything is perfect. If you have 5 horses for the same condition you just run the one that gives you the best chance of winning. That ability can make you very strong as a trainer. Same as a big claiming trainer who is likely to have more than one horse for each price. He can drop them and raise them with impunity because he already has a replacement if they get claimed.
Guys like Pletcher and Dutrow are spending a whole lot more on vets than most trainers because they dont care if the owners bitch or take the horses. That is not to say that all or any extra vet work will help. Slow horses are slow horses and the fact is that no vet work or vitamins will help. Believe me if you could "vet work" your way to the winners circle, we would all do it. Dont forget that these guys like Pletcher, Dutrow, etc more often than not have one of the best horses in the race, they rarely run real longshots which will help your %'s.
The fact that nothing ever changes when these guys get 30-60 day suspensions says a lot. If you havea lot of really good horses and a good program you will win, period.

Great post.

Eric