Calvin's ride

[SCUDSBROTHER]

YOU KNOW WHAT? Neither horse gunna pay anything in the near future.So,why argue who is better?No point to it.It's like 2 ugly guys fighting over which girl is prettier(THEY AIN'T GETTING ANY.)

[cmorioles]

I don't think it cost SS the race. I am constantly baffled, however, as to why a jockey ever looks backward. What is the point?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't think it cost SS the race. I am constantly baffled, however, as to why a jockey every looks backward. What is the point?

Especially when you're so close to the wire, why look back?
If you want my honest opinion? This is only speculation but I think he felt he had the race won and wanted to look to see if it was okay to celebrate, wave his fist, etc. When he saw Curlin right there he got back to business.

He only lost by a nose, it could be that a more focused ride wouldn't have reversed the order. We're talking inches here.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Especially when you're so close to the wire, why look back?
If you want my honest opinion? This is only speculation but I think he felt he had the race won and wanted to look to see if it was okay to celebrate, wave his fist, etc. When he saw Curlin right there he got back to business.

He only lost by a nose, it could be that a more focused ride wouldn't have reversed the order. We're talking inches here.

it certainly didnt look good when he did it.. I had to cringe seeing the replays when I saw him look back.. Hamdan said he was disappointed to see Jara look back when he won the DWC, imagine what he would have been like if he owned Street Sense..

[Samarta]

A couple of thoughts on this.....I'm surprised that nothing has been mentioned about Borel running out of goggles.....Gary Stevens made mention of it in the broadcast yesterday....If you look at the wire, when Borel raises his head, he looks like a baby that just went under water for the first time....could that have caused him some issues down the stretch....I know it happens all the time, but to happen in the stretch of the 2nd leg of the TC is awful....I think the reason why it looked like he quit riding him was because when he looked back over his shoulder and saw Curlin it shocked the bejesus out of him and then he really had to get busy again....once he passed him at the top of stretch, I don't think he ever thought about him til he heard something, looked over his shoulder and he was right in his face.....you can tell on the replay that he was stunned..whatever happened happened and we all got to witness a great race....

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by brockguy

it certainly didnt look good when he did it.. I had to cringe seeing the replays when I saw him look back.. Hamdan said he was disappointed to see Jara look back when he won the DWC, imagine what he would have been like if he owned Street Sense..

That's the thing, when Jara looked back he was at the head of a long stretch and he hadn't yet really put Invasor into his drive, so there was time to react.

What reason would CB have for looking back so deep in the stretch, in the middle of an all out drive to the wire?

I would guess that he never makes that little look around move on his every day mounts. At least I never recall him doing so.

[ninetoone]

i agree with arljim...he was going to revel in his victory, looked back & was like, "holy shiat"!!

[mclem10011]

Was another brilliant one, watching it i thought perhaps he waited a bit too long to move, but that wasn't the case. He made the lead, and even opened up a few lengths, it was impressive as hell. However, I was absolutely stunned when he looked back! To me that may have cost him that nose on the wire. I'm not a jockey, nor have i ever been on the back of a horse, much less in a race. But, goggles or know goggles, couldn't he feel the presence, or hear that Curlin was coming back at him? Help me out guys, am i missing something here? Or could it be, that Borel and Natger in the box with his "we got it" comment, following SS takin the lead, both thought they were home free? Bottom line, as brillian as the ride was, i feel Borel made a mistake that possibly cost him the 2nd leg of the triple crown! The heart that this horse showed, in making another terrific run was amazing. Borel making the mistake of lookin back, instead of riding HIS HORSE through the wire, was shocking to me.

[ninetoone]

I haven't seen or can't imagine any good reason to look back in that scenario, as opposed to not doing it. Whether or not it cost him those few inches, I guess noone will ever know for sure. My guess is that if he had it to do over again, he wouldn't look back. It was a great race by both though...my dumb *ss was on CQ, so I could enjoy the battle without any dreams of cashing a ticket on the winner.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by mclem10011

Was another brilliant one, watching it i thought perhaps he waited a bit too long to move, but that wasn't the case. He made the lead, and even opened up a few lengths, it was impressive as hell. However, I was absolutely stunned when he looked back! To me that may have cost him that nose on the wire. I'm not a jockey, nor have i ever been on the back of a horse, much less in a race. But, goggles or know goggles, couldn't he feel the presence, or hear that Curlin was coming back at him? Help me out guys, am i missing something here? Or could it be, that Borel and Natger in the box with his "we got it" comment, following SS takin the lead, both thought they were home free? Bottom line, as brillian as the ride was, i feel Borel made a mistake that possibly cost him the 2nd leg of the triple crown! The heart that this horse showed, in making another terrific run was amazing. Borel making the mistake of lookin back, instead of riding HIS HORSE through the wire, was shocking to me.

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

Thanks Somerfrost.
That peek didn't cost the horse a bit.
There's no blame in this one.
Both good horses, good rides.
Some people want to make more out of something than needs to be.
Look at the thread about the 3yo crop. Hmmm. Seems that some don't know a danged thing about cycles, that some peak at different times.
Always the comparisons, always the questions, always the blame.
Let's just say we saw a race worth remembering.
I'm also happy for Matz in his win in the Barbaro, and for the Ramsey's, for their win on the undercard also.
Many more races ahead.
Hope the "fans" don't try to over think it all. It's horse racing, afterall.

[ninetoone]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

When you lose by the length of the stretch, the jockey's decision making and the intricacies of the ride are a moot point. It's different when it's a head bob. Despite what some people think, it's not all horse. The jockeys decisions can win or lose a race, it's a fact. I don't think people are out to "blame" anyone per se...I think it's just natural curiousity after such a compelling race, and it's human nature to monday morning QB. I was on CQ, so I consider myself neutral, but as I said, if I had been on Street Sense, I'd certainly rather not have CB looking back...what about you?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by ninetoone

When you lose by the length of the stretch, the jockey's decision making and the intricacies of the ride are a moot point. It's different when it's a head bob. Despite what some people think, it's not all horse. The jockeys decisions can win or lose a race, it's a fact. I don't think people are out to "blame" anyone per se...I think it's just natural curiousity after such a compelling race, and it's human nature to monday morning QB. I was on CQ, so I consider myself neutral, but as I said, if I had been on Street Sense, I'd certainly rather not have CB looking back...what about you?

Were you really on CQ?
If so, ok. You did the best with what you had.
Do you really think that peek cost SS and CB the race?
I don't.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by ninetoone

When you lose by the length of the stretch, the jockey's decision making and the intricacies of the ride are a moot point. It's different when it's a head bob. Despite what some people think, it's not all horse. The jockeys decisions can win or lose a race, it's a fact. I don't think people are out to "blame" anyone per se...I think it's just natural curiousity after such a compelling race, and it's human nature to monday morning QB. I was on CQ, so I consider myself neutral, but as I said, if I had been on Street Sense, I'd certainly rather not have CB looking back...what about you?

I would rather not either, but not because it might cost me in a close finish, I'd be afraid (with my luck) the jock would fall off. Certainly in a perfect world, you want the jock to be all business...even after the finish line (I've seen horses take a bad step after a race...I'd want my jock paying attention until the dismount. Most of a jock's work is finished by the stretch, particularly if his horse is in front...I don't care how strong a jock is, the horse runs the race...a jock can encourage but the horse runs. Even the use of the whip is controversial, England has had big debates whether a whip should be allowed at all and a lot of data has been collected that seems to support the fact that whipping a horse seldom makes it run faster. If Calvin pulled back on the reigns or stood up (ala The Shoe and Kent D) you'd have a story but turning his head? Maybe if you collect wind tunnel data, you could prove that wind resistence slowed the horse to some minute extent but otherwise, I see no evidence to support a claim that merely turning his head slowed the horse.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Boy, third page of this meaningless thread...Calvin did NOTHING to effect the outcome, if Street Sense would have turned his head to look behind then you'd have a story. Why is it that after a great race with a fantastic finish people have to debate what some jock MAY have done wrong? Two horses, right now the best by far in their crop battled it out and Curlin got the head bob...all credit goes to Curlin and his connections. Sometimes you lose by the length of the stretch and sometimes a nose hair...it's called horse racing and there doesn't have to be someone to blame!

It was a great race, so quite naturally people on a horse racing forum may want to comb over every aspect of the race and debate it. Where is it written that we can only talk about things that effect the outcome?

Weren't you the one defending a thread about the possibility of contact between Street Sense and Hard Spun in the derby? In fact I think you started that thread and you said it was interesting even though you admitted that it had no effect on the outcome.

This time the outcome was very close so I feel there does exist some possibility that the look-back may have been costly. Doesn't mean I'm blaming anyone and it doesn't mean that I didn't thoroughly enjoy the race.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It was a great race, so quite naturally people on a horse racing forum may want to comb over every aspect of the race and debate it. Where is it written that we can only talk about things that effect the outcome?

Weren't you the one defending a thread about the possibility of contact between Street Sense and Hard Spun in the derby? In fact I think you started that thread and you said it was interesting even though you admitted that it had no effect on the outcome.

This time the outcome was very close so I feel there does exist some possibility that the look-back may have been costly. Doesn't mean I'm blaming anyone and it doesn't mean that I didn't thoroughly enjoy the race.

And I'm not saying YOU did/do...by posting, I am giving my opinion! It always tickles me, people accuse me of attacking others for their opinions when all I'm doing is giving MY opinion...so, in fact, they are doing what they accuse me of doing! IN MY OPINION, this is a meaningless thread because Calvin did nothing to effect the race. When I posted the story about possible contact in the Derby, I stated from the beginning that I didn't think it was meaningful just interesting...this thread may be interesting but imo not meaningful either! It should be noted that yesterday during the ESPN/NBC coverage, the issue of contact was brought up several times and Pino was interviewed about it...at one point, he indicated that a foul claim WAS considered but he thought his horse just took a bad step. I still don't think the incident was meaningful but the networks apparently did!

Originally Posted by somerfrost

....England has had big debates whether a whip should be allowed at all and a lot of data has been collected that seems to support the fact that whipping a horse seldom makes it run faster. If Calvin pulled back on the reigns or stood up (ala The Shoe and Kent D) you'd have a story but turning his head? Maybe if you collect wind tunnel data, .

standing straight up in the reins ala the 1957 derby) should not impact the horses momentum all things being equal (It would be like jumping straight up on a train). If you watch the video of Gallant Man the Shoe's move does not appear to change his stride or speed at all. And why should it? Looks bad but not by the laws of physics...

Turning in the saddle should do something to the horses momentum both sideways and backwards. DIdnt the last race, Borel turned back and SS switched leads?

[LARHAGE]

I'm not saying the look back cost Street Sense the win, but I was screaming at Calvin to QUIT IT!!!!! Can't he look under his arm like major league jockeys, or how about just putting your head down and riding your ass off to the wire? I have ridden horses for over 30 years, and while that may not make me a bio-physics expert, I do know that it's all in the rhythm, and his looking back the way he did, would definately be evident to Street Sense, he turned his whole frigging head!!!!

[todko]

Everything I see on the replay (overhead, head-on, pan shot) shows that SS didn't flinch. He ran straight as an arrow. Didn't gawk at the crowd. Had his ears back the whole way. And he was hit on the left side repeatedly.

He didn't flinch in the Derby either. Or Tampa Bay Downs. Or at the BC Juvy. He didn't show any routine tendency to hang or gawk. Keeneland yes, but maybe he could not get traction on the poly as they were going toward the wire. Perhaps staggered a bit coming out of the hard race at Tampa Bay. Plus the stands at Keeneland are at an angle to the stretch.

Borel didn't lose the race. His glancing back didn't change the outcome.

Borel's ride was much better than Robby's. Robby had the horse wide most of the race. Curlin was into the stretch on the wrong lead. Robby did get him to switch leads, Curlin looked at SS, accelerated, game over.

[SundayStar]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Im tired of hearing the work "hang" in SS performance. He ran fantastic. Hanging in my opinion is coming up to a horse and either laying on him or just not wanting to go by. Borel said he felt SS idle just a bit in deep stretch, but only he can verify that. I thought he ran straight and strong to the wire.

i agree. i've watched the stretch run several times and i never saw even a hint of street sense gawking at the crowd or pulling up. he looked determined and looked to be giving full effort the for the entire stretch.