Bailey vs. Azeri

[blackthroatedwind]

Thanks for the Go for Wand race Chuck. I watched a bunch of her races, unfortunately didn't find the Test, and it was nice to be reminded what a terrific horse she was. Seeing those fractions, and the way she ran, is just another sad reminder of what mediocrities we have masquerading as Grade 1 horses in that division right now. What a monster Go for Wand was.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are the typical modern day horseracing fan....taking potential and portraying it as success! You don't happen to own a breeding farm do you?


BTW I saw Lakeway and Sardula up close and personal. They were far from alltime greats like this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGD77kgutGU

uh, yeah. sardula won the kentucky oaks (among others) and lakeway was a multiple grade 1 winner who beat the snot out of inside information in their lone race against each other prior to lakeway running sick.

akinemond, after losing her debut, won something like 7 in a row, all very easily, culminated by her 18 length win where she ran a blazing fast time and got a 118 or 119 bsf. she was so dominant in her previous races, drysdale actually chickened out with gorgeous (another filly that would have beaten azeri) and scratched her.

just to dispel any misguided opinions you have on those three horses and whether they were successes were more about merit or potential, I've done you the favor of posting here what each did.

SARDULA:

SARDULA,B,f,Storm Cat 2 10 6 3 0 882,460 (102) 56.65
North America 2 YO Record * 5 3 2 0 532,545 (102)
North America Turf Record 1 0 0 0 4,375 ( 88)
North America Dirt Sprints 3 3 0 0 214,450 (102)
North America Dirt Routes 6 3 3 0 663,635 (100)
DP = 7-7-9-0-3 DI = 2.47 CD = 0.58 AWD = 7.50
At 2 Won Del Mar Debutante S. -G2 (250,000), Hollywood Starlet S. -G1
(250,000), 2nd Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies S. -G1 (1,000,000), Oak
Leaf S. -G1 (200,000)
At 3 Won Kentucky Oaks -G1 (283,600), Santa Paula S. -L (106,000),
Princess S. -G2 (102,700), 2nd Hollywood Oaks -G1 (205,000)

lets see, her only race worse than 2nd was her lone turf start. she won the hollywood starlet and kentucky oaks, both grade 1s and the del mar debutante and princess stakes, both grade 2s. she ran 2nd in the bc juvie filly and 2nd in the hollywood oaks (in an insane time), both grade 1s.

Next is Lakeway, which I'll only include up to her last race as a 3yo, where she was run sick and nearly died.

LAKEWAY,B,f,Seattle Slew 3 14 7 3 3 965,330 (111) 48.43
North America 2 YO Record * 1 1 0 0 15,400 ( 96)
North America Dirt Sprints 3 2 0 1 52,400 (101)
North America Dirt Routes 11 5 3 2 912,930 (111)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 2 1 0 1 257,280 (111)
DP = 14-3-19-2-0 DI = 2.30 CD = 0.76 AWD = 7.93
At 3 Won Santa Anita Oaks -G1 (212,800), Hollywood Oaks -G1 (205,000),
Mother Goose S. -G1 (200,000), Las Virgenes S. -G1 (161,100), 2nd
Kentucky Oaks -G1 (283,600), Alabama S. -G1 (200,000)

Yeah, you're right. She wasn't very good at all. Four grade 1's as a three year old, a desperate nose loss in the ky oaks and a 2nd in the alabama in which she nearly died after the race (both losses were in grade 1's).
That 145.4 she ran 9f at hollywood wasn't really that astonishing now that i think about it.

Now Akinemod, who after that 18 length win early in her four year old year nearly died from colic, suffered injuries and more illnesses, and when finally making it back to the races something like 2 years later, was nowhere near what she was.

She lost her debut to a pretty useful filly (paper princess i think), then won 6 in a row (now that i've looked it up). she spent most of those races sprinting, but when routed in the el encino, a grade 2, she wins by 18 lengths in something like 1:41, with more ease than you'll see from a horse working out.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

You guys want to see a real superstar filly....

Kiri - please post a few of those epic Ashado 2yo races I sent you!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The BC at Arlington.
Tell me she would not have crushed the boys.

She would not have been in the top 3

and that was far from a stellar field.

She was a nice filly who was mistaken for a star because she hid out west for most of her career and even when she came East, was exposed against a really so-so group of fillies. I'm sure even horses like Goodbye Halo would have beat her up. But you are free to think that she was a freak if you would like.

[miraja2]

Off the top of my head I would have to rank her as the top filly/mare in that division of THIS decade, but as others have pointed out, this has been a weak decade for that division.
If you went back to the 90s and matched her against a horse like Inside Information, I think Azeri would most likely be outclassed.
And the 80s were simply an exceptional decade for fillies and mares on the dirt. Of all of them I would personally go with Personal Ensign, but a strong case could be made for a number of them from that decade.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

uh, yeah. sardula won the kentucky oaks (among others) and lakeway was a multiple grade 1 winner who beat the snot out of inside information in their lone race against each other prior to lakeway running sick.

akinemond, after losing her debut, won something like 7 in a row, all very easily, culminated by her 18 length win where she ran a blazing fast time and got a 118 or 119 bsf. she was so dominant in her previous races, drysdale actually chickened out with gorgeous (another filly that would have beaten azeri) and scratched her.

just to dispel any misguided opinions you have on those three horses and whether they were successes were more about merit or potential, I've done you the favor of posting here what each did.

SARDULA:

SARDULA,B,f,Storm Cat 2 10 6 3 0 882,460 (102) 56.65
North America 2 YO Record * 5 3 2 0 532,545 (102)
North America Turf Record 1 0 0 0 4,375 ( 88)
North America Dirt Sprints 3 3 0 0 214,450 (102)
North America Dirt Routes 6 3 3 0 663,635 (100)
DP = 7-7-9-0-3 DI = 2.47 CD = 0.58 AWD = 7.50
At 2 Won Del Mar Debutante S. -G2 (250,000), Hollywood Starlet S. -G1
(250,000), 2nd Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies S. -G1 (1,000,000), Oak
Leaf S. -G1 (200,000)
At 3 Won Kentucky Oaks -G1 (283,600), Santa Paula S. -L (106,000),
Princess S. -G2 (102,700), 2nd Hollywood Oaks -G1 (205,000)

lets see, her only race worse than 2nd was her lone turf start. she won the hollywood starlet and kentucky oaks, both grade 1s and the del mar debutante and princess stakes, both grade 2s. she ran 2nd in the bc juvie filly and 2nd in the hollywood oaks (in an insane time), both grade 1s.

Next is Lakeway, which I'll only include up to her last race as a 3yo, where she was run sick and nearly died.

LAKEWAY,B,f,Seattle Slew 3 14 7 3 3 965,330 (111) 48.43
North America 2 YO Record * 1 1 0 0 15,400 ( 96)
North America Dirt Sprints 3 2 0 1 52,400 (101)
North America Dirt Routes 11 5 3 2 912,930 (111)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 2 1 0 1 257,280 (111)
DP = 14-3-19-2-0 DI = 2.30 CD = 0.76 AWD = 7.93
At 3 Won Santa Anita Oaks -G1 (212,800), Hollywood Oaks -G1 (205,000),
Mother Goose S. -G1 (200,000), Las Virgenes S. -G1 (161,100), 2nd
Kentucky Oaks -G1 (283,600), Alabama S. -G1 (200,000)

Yeah, you're right. She wasn't very good at all. Four grade 1's as a three year old, a desperate nose loss in the ky oaks and a 2nd in the alabama in which she nearly died after the race (both losses were in grade 1's).
That 145.4 she ran 9f at hollywood wasn't really that astonishing now that i think about it.

Now Akinemod, who after that 18 length win early in her four year old year nearly died from colic, suffered injuries and more illnesses, and when finally making it back to the races something like 2 years later, was nowhere near what she was.

She lost her debut to a pretty useful filly (paper princess i think), then won 6 in a row (now that i've looked it up). she spent most of those races sprinting, but when routed in the el encino, a grade 2, she wins by 18 lengths in something like 1:41, with more ease than you'll see from a horse working out.

No one said that Sardula and Lakeway were not good horses but they took turns beating the same bad group of fillies in the same year. The KY oaks that year was an awful field with the exception of the 2 noted horses. To be an alltime great you must at least be the best filly of your crop, neither of which Sardula or Lakeway was. I never said one negative word about them but the likes of Go for Wand, Bayakoa and Lady's Secret would have ripped them apart. And Azeri probably would have taken them too. As for the other horse....She never won any important races so why should she be included in the discussion?

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No one said that Sardula and Lakeway were not good horses but they took turns beating the same bad group of fillies in the same year. The KY oaks that year was an awful field with the exception of the 2 noted horses. To be an alltime great you must at least be the best filly of your crop, neither of which Sardula or Lakeway was. I never said one negative word about them but the likes of Go for Wand, Bayakoa and Lady's Secret would have ripped them apart. And Azeri probably would have taken them too. As for the other horse....She never won any important races so why should she be included in the discussion?

clear out your mailbox!!!!!! lol

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by justindew

In her entire career, Azeri never lost a two-turn race in which she was sent to the lead. Her only vulnerability was when another horses set fast fractions ahead of her, and she was forced to chase.

True, but in HER entire career, Personal Ensign never lost a race under any circumstances whatsoever.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pdrift1

clear out your mailbox!!!!!! lol

sorry

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

She would not have been in the top 3

and that was far from a stellar field.

She was a nice filly who was mistaken for a star because she hid out west for most of her career and even when she came East, was exposed against a really so-so group of fillies. I'm sure even horses like Goodbye Halo would have beat her up. But you are free to think that she was a freak if you would like.

If I could have convinced the Paulson's
to give her to you then you would have seen.
Huge cruiser with a drive at the end.

She died on the vine. Unfullfilled.
Happens all the time. Tried to get a stupid
streak and ruined a horse. I hated to see her
run after she fermented. It was awful to witness
the degradation.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If I could have convinced the Paulson's
to give her to you then you would have seen.
Huge cruiser with a drive at the end.

She died on the vine. Unfullfilled.
Happens all the time. Tried to get a stupid
streak and ruined a horse. I hated to see her
run after she fermented. It was awful to witness
the degradation.

Hard to say the streak ruined her as she was usually just toying with the same bunch of 30 claimers

Of course running in tougher races would have ruined her because she would not have had the notoriety of having a winning streak and we all would have forgotten about her by now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I lean towards what the others are saying in this arguement, but she did win the Apple Blossom and Go For Wand in that year that it was so hard for you to watch her run. Not a bad year. And was what 5th in the Classic behind Ghostzapper?

5th is not what legends are made of...

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No one said that Sardula and Lakeway were not good horses but they took turns beating the same bad group of fillies in the same year. The KY oaks that year was an awful field with the exception of the 2 noted horses. To be an alltime great you must at least be the best filly of your crop, neither of which Sardula or Lakeway was. I never said one negative word about them but the likes of Go for Wand, Bayakoa and Lady's Secret would have ripped them apart. And Azeri probably would have taken them too. As for the other horse....She never won any important races so why should she be included in the discussion?

yeah, that crop that sardula and lakeway was in sort of reminds me of recent crops of fillies.

inside information, heavenly prize, phone chatter (granted, she didnt do anything after her bc win) along with sardula and lakeway, that's a pretty awful crop of fillies. you might be the only person who follows racing to think that was a bad group of fillies in that crop. most would say that was one of the best crops ever, at least in recent memory.

as to akinemod, if melair can count, then so too can akinemod. after all, the only race of significance that melair won was a one turn mile against snow chief and southern halo. the greatness of her performance that day cannot be described, much in the same way akinemod's performance was in her 18 length win.

in case you've never seen her, i'll post this clip of her here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXknPEC9GCU

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

yeah, that crop that sardula and lakeway was in sort of reminds me of recent crops of fillies.

inside information, heavenly prize, phone chatter (granted, she didnt do anything after her bc win) along with sardula and lakeway, that's a pretty awful crop of fillies. you might be the only person who follows racing to think that was a bad group of fillies in that crop. most would say that was one of the best crops ever, at least in recent memory.

as to akinemod, if melair can count, then so too can akinemod. after all, the only race of significance that melair won was a one turn mile against snow chief and southern halo. the greatness of her performance that day cannot be described, much in the same way akinemod's performance was in her 18 length win.

in case you've never seen her, i'll post this clip of her here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXknPEC9GCU

Except Lakeway and Sardula rarely if ever beat any of those horses! All of the victories were west coast with the exception of the KY Oaks which featured pretty much no one.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Except Lakeway and Sardula rarely if ever beat any of those horses! All of the victories were west coast with the exception of the KY Oaks which featured pretty much no one.

Except when Lakeway went to NY and kicked the crap out of inside information? Did they run the Mother Goose in California that year?

Or the time Heavenly Prize shipped out to California for the BC juvie filly race and got smoked by Phone Chatter and Sardula?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Except Lakeway and Sardula rarely if ever beat any of those horses! All of the victories were west coast with the exception of the KY Oaks which featured pretty much no one.

Lakeway won the Mother Goose in very impressive fashion.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Or the time Heavenly Prize shipped out to California for the BC juvie filly race and got smoked by Phone Chatter and Sardula?

Heavenly Prize hardly got " smoked " in that race.

[Cannon Shell]

Ok I give up

Lakeway and Sardula should be in the HALL of FAME!!!

We are all just witnesses to the greatness of these 2 fillies.

akinemod should be in too.


Go for Wand just rolled over in her grave......

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Heavenly Prize hardly got " smoked " in that race.

I think she ran third, and I don't recall exactly by how much she lost, but wasn't it by around 5?

[Cannon Shell]

Heavenly Prize was a good filly but not an alltime great either. And Inside Information was much better as a 4 year old.