Fab strike

[Scav]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He's just not old like me.

Hell, I remember when My Juliet beat Bold Forbes in 1976.

...i was just a thought then

[SentToStud]

People look at horses differently. DCat has run very fast and brilliantly but has really beat just two quality horses, Invasor and Silver Train, while winning one Grade 1 race. There have been many single Grade 1 winners, just few who ran as quick as he has. Based on his big wins only, yes, sure, he is very special. Then again, his two wins last fall were in 5 and 6 horse fields in which he beat just one high quality racehorse. I would love to see him succeed in a big field, win when denied his preferred running style or win giving significant weight. Hopefully, he'll stay sound enough and stay on the track long enough for some of those things to happen. But it doesn't look that way.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Swap Fliparoo

His universe is Zapper-centric.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He's just not old like me.

Hell, I remember when My Juliet beat Bold Forbes in 1976.

HA! Probably right.

They caved to the "prep for the BC" stuff, I guess.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

suddenly the subject is changed to Ghostzapper? because he is like Discreet Cat and the people who said things about him are the same people that are saying things about discreet Cat? these kinds of arguments by substitution seem weak to me.

If Discreet Cat were to crush the field in the BCC at Monmouth it would be another story, which if he were a good as he is being billed he would easily do. I prefer to pile on the accolades after the great performances are documented. The victory over two opponents in the Cigar was a very fast mile, but I don't think it quite puts one in the rarified air just yet.

He's good, but he ain't Ghostzapper.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Explain his mishandling.

Other than running him in the Dubai World Cup with no prep race I've never had a problem with their handling of him at all. I assume they are handling him with kid gloves because the horse has a lot of soundness issues that leaves them with no choice.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If Discreet Cat were to crush the field in the BCC at Monmouth it would be another story, which if he were a good as he is being billed he would easily do.

How the hell is he supposed to win the Breeders Cup Classic?

Since his throat surgery, he's had zero races and only five workouts - all easy breezing workouts by all accounts.

He has no foundation at all under him - and that race is four weeks away.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How the hell is he supposed to win the Breeders Cup Classic?

Since his throat surgery, he's had zero races and only five workouts - all easy breezing workouts by all accounts.

He has no foundation at all under him - and that race is four weeks away.

He can prep in the Dirt Mile and 70 yards the day before if he needs a foundation.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Other than running him in the Dubai World Cup with no prep race I've never had a problem with their handling of him at all.

They've shipped him to Dubai and back twice - and haven't allowed him to get a racing foundation under him.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They've shipped him to Dubai and back twice - and haven't allowed him to get a racing foundation under him.

Invasor did that too and shipped from Argentina before that. He managed to get a foundation last year and presumably would have this year had he not got injured.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How the hell is he supposed to win the Breeders Cup Classic?

Since his throat surgery, he's had zero races and only five workouts - all easy breezing workouts by all accounts.

He has no foundation at all under him - and that race is four weeks away.

I didn't imply he would or could win the BCC. Its clear he's not ready for it.
I merely suggested that before I would make comparisions to Ghostzapper, I would want to see something like that. a single great performance over top horses that would place his talent at or above everything else over the past ten years.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They've shipped him to Dubai and back twice - and haven't allowed him to get a racing foundation under him.

Does he need to win the Vosburgh to get into the BC Sprint? I think a second gets him 6 points... 12-way tie for 16th. Some above him are out, but others may run and get more points the next couple weeks as well.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Does he need to win the Vosburgh to get into the BC Sprint? I think a second gets him 6 points... 12-way tie for 16th. Some above him are out, but others may run and get more points the next couple weeks as well.

Only seven spots are determined by points. The other 7 spots are at the discretion of the panel who would almost certainly select Discreet Cat.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Invasor did that too and shipped from Argentina before that. He managed to get a foundation last year and presumably would have this year had he not got injured.

Invasor did not winter there once.

He shipped there twice - both times from America while training here.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I merely suggested that before I would make comparisions to Ghostzapper, I would want to see something like that. a single great performance over top horses that would place his talent at or above everything else over the past ten years.

He's had five such performances already - I guess three would be minus the "against top horses part" - and I steadfastly believe the "beating top horses" stuff is wildly overrated.

It would be one thing if he had soft trips in those wins - but except for the Jerome, he didn't. They were authentic wins.

On countless occasions, I've seen very moderate horses of little ability beat top class fields because they out-tripped them.

I remember 12 years ago watching Wild Syn, who was less horse than a lot of claiming animals, easily beat Thunder Gulch and Tejano Run in the Blue Grass Stakes. TG and TR came back three weeks later to run 1st and 2nd in the Kentucky Derby - Wild Syn reverted back to his hideous form without the bias and setup he had in the Blue Grass. That was a race that I took a lot from when I first started betting.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Using the Blue Grass Stakes as your example is equivalent to King's La Traviata/ BC Classic retort to BTW yesterday.

La Traviata is a confirmed sprinter - with a very moderate 22.34 foot long stride length - She has three lifetime races under her belt and has never gone beyond six furlongs.

Mentioning her and the Breeders Cup Classic together is idiotic.

Although - according to you - it's the equivalent of using the '95 Blue Grass Stakes as the Classic example of how supposed "top horses" can be beaten by wildly inferior ones who out-trip them?

Did you happen to grow up in Kansas City by chance?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He's had five such performances already - I guess three would be minus the "against top horses part" - and I steadfastly believe the "beating top horses" stuff is wildly overrated.
It would be one thing if he had soft trips in those wins - but except for the Jerome, he didn't. They were authentic wins.

On countless occasions, I've seen very moderate horses of little ability beat top class fields because they out-tripped them.

I remember 12 years ago watching Wild Syn, who was less horse than a lot of claiming animals, easily beat Thunder Gulch and Tejano Run in the Blue Grass Stakes. TG and TR came back three weeks later to run 1st and 2nd in the Kentucky Derby - Wild Syn reverted back to his hideous form without the bias and setup he had in the Blue Grass. That was a race that I took a lot from when I first started betting.

Well, breaking from the inside Fab Strike gets his shot at proving you correct about being a substantial race horse.

If he has any class at all, he'll be close at the end.

With no scratches, I make him 15-1 to win the race.

I also make it even money he finishes out of the top three.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, breaking from the inside Fab Strike gets his shot at proving you correct about being a substantial race horse.

To me, the fact that Fabulous Strike hasn't beat "Grade 1 type horses" means nothing at all.

Fact is, if he had the same dream trip as he did in those monsterous figure wins at Chuchill Downs and Mountaineer Park - he'd have decimated any top horse.

An off-the-pace type like Midnight Lute - who was SENSATIONAL winning the Forego wouldn't have had a prayer against him going six furlongs with an uncontested lead through soft fractions.

To me, the big knock on Fabulous Strike is about trips.

* He has yet to show the ability to battle through true fast fractions, take pace pressure, and run his big race.

* And I'm skeptical about how well he'd run if he's rated off of a fast pace and tries a change of tactics.

If you took all the great closing sprinters in the last fifteen years - and ran them against Fabulous Strike going six furlongs - FS would win, and probably stylishly, because he'd get no early pressure at all, and he's repeatedly shown the ability to run supersonic late fractions (often while under a full nelson) when he has things all his way through the early stages.

[Danzig]

i think they've mishandled discreet cat. he suffered a huge setback after shipping to the us the first time, laid him up for months. so, then they ship him back to dubai, and then ship him back here again?! why? how many times do they need to have problems after shipping him before they realize that he's not a good shipper?
also, they did the same with another big horse of theirs--he was a derby hope, he shipped over, was never seen on the track again--he died a few months after arriving in new york...
what are those guys doing anyway regarding shipping? they keep wanting to run a horse at home, and then come here to win the derby. yet they can't get a horse here in the right shape to do that....

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

To me, the fact that Fabulous Strike hasn't beat "Grade 1 type horses" means nothing at all.

Fact is, if he had the same dream trip as he did in those monsterous figure wins at Chuchill Downs and Mountaineer Park - he'd have decimated any top horse.

An off-the-pace type like Midnight Lute - who was SENSATIONAL winning the Forego wouldn't have had a prayer against him going six furlongs with an uncontested lead through soft fractions.

To me, the big knock on Fabulous Strike is about trips.

* He has yet to show the ability to battle through true fast fractions, take pace pressure, and run his big race.

* And I'm skeptical about how well he'd run if he's rated off of a fast pace and tries a change of tactics.

If you took all the great closing sprinters in the last fifteen years - and ran them against Fabulous Strike going six furlongs - FS would win, and probably stylishly, because he'd get no early pressure at all, and he's repeatedly shown the ability to run supersonic late fractions (often while under a full nelson) when he has things all his way through the early stages.

you say it doesn't matter that Fabulous Strike hasn't beaten Gr1 types, but then you say your knock on him is that he can't battle through fast fractions or rate if he has to, which are the very things he would be required to do in order to beat Gr1 types. thats why class matters.

Its no mystery that horses look unbeatable when they race against lesser company and have everything their own way.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

To me, the fact that Fabulous Strike hasn't beat "Grade 1 type horses" means nothing at all.

Fact is, if he had the same dream trip as he did in those monsterous figure wins at Chuchill Downs and Mountaineer Park - he'd have decimated any top horse.

An off-the-pace type like Midnight Lute - who was SENSATIONAL winning the Forego wouldn't have had a prayer against him going six furlongs with an uncontested lead through soft fractions.

To me, the big knock on Fabulous Strike is about trips.

* He has yet to show the ability to battle through true fast fractions, take pace pressure, and run his big race.

* And I'm skeptical about how well he'd run if he's rated off of a fast pace and tries a change of tactics.

If you took all the great closing sprinters in the last fifteen years - and ran them against Fabulous Strike going six furlongs - FS would win, and probably stylishly, because he'd get no early pressure at all, and he's repeatedly shown the ability to run supersonic late fractions (often while under a full nelson) when he has things all his way through the early stages.

But if Weigelia was in the race, Fab Strike would probably be stopping on the turn.

Fast he is. No doubt. But unless he's the lone speed, it's been worthless against good horses.

Well, he's in tomorrrow. Without going out too much on the line or divulging things you do not think you can on a message board, just how do you actually see him running tomorrow??

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

you say it doesn't matter that Fabulous Strike hasn't beaten Gr1 types, but then you say your knock on him is that he can't battle through fast fractions or rate if he has to, which are the very things he would be required to do in order to beat Gr1 types.

No they aren't. Often times Grade 3 sprint stakes feature tougher fractions than Grade 1 sprint stakes...you get much more cheap speed in those races.