Bhutto assassinated

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You n' GEEDUBBYA agree there.

Well he has to call his daddy and make sure which side to choose, but yeah he eventually will agree.

[golfer]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg

[Danzig]

her husband and 19 year old son are to take over the party leadership. good luck with that, they'll need it.

Scuds you know a couple of people from Turkey and you think you got the whole country figured out? You think Turkey is a hell hole?

Compared to what?

The country just to the South of us has regions just as bad as anything you described in Turkey. US citizens get raped in jail there every year. There are regions the Mexican government has no control over. No Turkey is not the US; But if you randomly started picking countries from a hat THAT YOU HAD TO LIVE IN, and Turkey was the first one that came up, I would be inclined to pick it. A country in Africa, the Middle East, South America (you go live in Columbia or Ecuador), etc... might be the very next pick...

It is a matter of degree with all these countries.

We just happen to be damn lucky.

We have to figure out how Al Q is getting funded and gets stuff transported to them. We know its Middle east money, we got to infilitrate and this will take time. We run them out of Afghanistan, and now they are stronger in Pakistan which has nukes. Not good. Bottom line: it requires lots of money, communication and transport. This is no small operation. All these countries have to get on the same page about this group. They deal in nothing but death, destruction, and the complete inhibition of any individual liberties. And every country they gain power goes through immense suffering.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Scuds you know a couple of people from Turkey and you think you got the whole country figured out? You think Turkey is a hell hole?

Compared to what?

The country just to the South of us has regions just as bad as anything you described in Turkey. US citizens get raped in jail there every year. There are regions the Mexican government has no control over. No Turkey is not the US; But if you randomly started picking countries from a hat THAT YOU HAD TO LIVE IN, and Turkey was the first one that came up, I would be inclined to pick it. A country in Africa, the Middle East, South America (you go live in Columbia or Ecuador), etc... might be the very next pick...

It is a matter of degree with all these countries.

We just happen to be damn lucky.

We have to figure out how Al Q is getting funded and gets stuff transported to them. We know its Middle east money, we got to infilitrate and this will take time. We run them out of Afghanistan, and now they are stronger in Pakistan which has nukes. Not good. Bottom line: it requires lots of money, communication and transport. This is no small operation. All these countries have to get on the same page about this group. They deal in nothing but death, destruction, and the complete inhibition of any individual liberties. And every country they gain power goes through immense suffering.

I'D APPRECIATE IT IF YA USED A QUOTE OF MINE TO START YOUR RESPONSE,CUZ THEN I KNOW NOT TO READ IT(cuz you're another who simply likes to return a hard serve.)You are much better when you don't try to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian........."Got it all figured out"....Yeah,on the subject of Islamic countries and Democracy,I think I do.It ain't ever gunna happen.It's a religion that has no tolerance for non-believers.Evidently,they don't have a lot of tolerance for left-handed people ,either.You want a country without a free press? Great,but don't call it "nice" or Democratic.Is the standard of living in Turkey better than these other countries you mentioned(has nothing to do with the subject,but that never stopped you from fishing )....Yes.Any country that has people breeding beyond their means is in trouble,but nobody wants to accept that as the truth.It's easier to just blame somebody else for a country's irresponsible ways.................Back to the other topic,I want all you people that deny Turkey's lack of 1)civil rights,2)free speech,3)free press,4)freedom of religion etc. to just wait n' see what happens,because this is not this great Moslem Democracy you are fantasizing it to be.What I'm saying is you don't have just an isolated group (like Al Quaeda) to go after.It's a problem with the whole intolerant Moslem World.It is totally unsupportive of Democracy and freedom,and that's why those 2 things are so lacking when you look at what countries Moslems control.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I'D APPRECIATE IT IF YA USED A QUOTE OF MINE TO START YOUR RESPONSE,CUZ THEN I KNOW NOT TO READ IT(cuz you're another who simply likes to return a hard serve.)You are much better when you don't try to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian........."Got it all figured out"....Yeah,on the subject of Islamic countries and Democracy,I think I do.It ain't ever gunna happen.It's a religion that has no tolerance for non-believers.Evidently,they don't have a lot of tolerance for left-handed people ,either.You want a country without a free press? Great,but don't call it "nice" or Democratic.Is the standard of living in Turkey better than these other countries you mentioned(has nothing to do with the subject,but that never stopped you from fishing )....Yes.Any country that has people breeding beyond their means is in trouble,but nobody wants to accept that as the truth.It's easier to just blame somebody else for a country's irresponsible ways.................Back to the other topic,I want all you people that deny Turkey's lack of 1)civil rights,2)free speech,3)free press,4)freedom of religion etc. to just wait n' see what happens,because this is not this great Moslem Democracy you are fantasizing it to be.What I'm saying is you don't have just an isolated group (like Al Quaeda) to go after.It's a problem with the whole intolerant Moslem World.It is totally unsupportive of Democracy and freedom,and that's why those 2 things are so lacking when you look at what countries Moslems control.

Scuds do you have any idea what role the military plays in Turkey? They want nothing to do with Muslim extremists. The root them out and kill them. This is one of the reasons they had trouble getting acceptance by the EU.

TURKEY IS VERY UNLIKE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE MILITARY. Very powerful but definitely hell bent on keeping religion OUT of its ranks.

These countries all have diff. unique characteristics. You paint them with a broad brush and you make a mistake.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Scuds do you have any idea what role the military plays in Turkey? They want nothing to do with Muslim extremists. The root them out and kill them. This is one of the reasons they had trouble getting acceptance by the EU.

TURKEY IS VERY UNLIKE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE MILITARY. Very powerful but definitely hell bent on keeping religion OUT of its ranks.

These countries all have diff. unique characteristics. You paint them with a broad brush and you make a mistake.

i believe i can answer for scuds.

"Scuds do you have any idea what role the military plays in Turkey?"

ignores.

"They want nothing to do with Muslim extremists. The root them out and kill them. This is one of the reasons they had trouble getting acceptance by the EU."

ignores.

TURKEY IS VERY UNLIKE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE MILITARY. Very powerful but definitely hell bent on keeping religion OUT of its ranks.

ignores.

"These countries all have diff. unique characteristics. You paint them with a broad brush and you make a mistake"

spastic, twitching, foaming at the mouth rant. a call for blood. some odd off the wall tennis reference.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Scuds do you have any idea what role the military plays in Turkey? They want nothing to do with Muslim extremists. The root them out and kill them. This is one of the reasons they had trouble getting acceptance by the EU.

TURKEY IS VERY UNLIKE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE MILITARY. Very powerful but definitely hell bent on keeping religion OUT of its ranks.

These countries all have diff. unique characteristics. You paint them with a broad brush and you make a mistake.

The people aren't that much less religious than in other Moslem countries.You don't see that because the Military won't allow the Government to be a Religious Government.The government preaches NATIONALISM(ala 1930-40 GERMANY AND JAPAN.)I don't know how they keep up with the demand for that Turkish Flag.There must be 20 flags per person in that country.If there are 70 million Turks,then there must be like 2 billion flags in the country.PGRDN,this comes at a high price.They are taught that Turkish blood is supreme,and they use the words "our race" in their national anthem.They call themselves sons of conquerors etc.The have a dual problem.The best way to describe it is they pretty much just like other TURKS.The citizens of other Moslem countries pretty much just don't like non-Moslems.The TURKS don't like Non Moslems,but the twist is they also think they are superior (in blood) to all the other Moslems.They are not less of a problem than other MOSLEMS.If they could get away with it,they would really bomb the **** out of Greece.They don't get along all that well with anybody around them.They are invaders.History tells ya that.Believe me,they don't shy away from that tradition.The people though are 99% Moslem.My friend wouldn't go through that RAMADAM fasting etc. if he thought he could get away with avoiding it.What I am telling you is they don't need the Government to encourage Islam.See,this is why they elected this new guy.He is more religious.They are gunna slowly slide back into the Islamic Government stuff over time.The people favor that by majority.Lets face it,the General (who started modern day Turkey) wanted a non-religious Gov't because he was a big drinker/womanizer.He wanted to be more like Europe.The people would rather be like other Moslem countries.That's why they elected a guy with Pro Islamist background.They are slowly headed back to an Islamic Government. As quickly as the military will allow it.

[hi_im_god]

"What I am telling you is they don't need the Government to encourage Islam.See,this is why they elected this new guy.He is more religious."

what he's trying to say is that the kind of people the majority vote for in the free and open elections are clear evidence this isn't a democracy.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

"What I am telling you is they don't need the Government to encourage Islam.See,this is why they elected this new guy.He is more religious."

what he's trying to say is that the kind of people the majority vote for in the free and open elections are clear evidence this isn't a democracy.

See,it depends on what you think a Democracy is.If there is no free press,or limited free speech then the people only can select politicians based on what their Government allows them to see and hear.I mean they can vote,but how would they be informed voters ? Their choices will be based on what? What the Government wants them to know.If you aren't free to gain information,then your vote will be based on opinions crafted by 1)the dominant religion,or 2)the information the government wants you to use when forming an opinion.Is that really a free vote? No,not if the voters are voting with very limited information.Whatever information you have obtained about the Armenian Genocide is information that would far exceed that of Turk Citizens.They don't know very much about it.They aren't allowed to know about it.If you don't have a free press,then that's not a free vote.

Scuds.
They badly want to be a respected member of the EU.
This is for economic reasons. If they are thrown out of
any European trading block, the citizens will suffer economically.
This is not a poor country. Many Turks live a life style that is
very western and THEY LIKE IT. Having running water, electricity,
and the ability to buy Western goods. The majority of the population
is stuck in this mode. Take that away... Dont think its gonna happen.
And that will be taken away if they pull an Iran.

This is a very strange country in a lot of ways. A huge mixture of West
and East. A lot like Iran (huge middle class with Western attitudes) actually, except they have much more money (yes, despite all that oil, Iran is hurt a great deal by sanctions; prediction, Imadinnersuit will go down this coming year) and access to a lot more pleasures of the West.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

See,it depends on what you think a Democracy is.If there is no free press,or limited free speech then the people only can select politicians based on what their Government allows them to see and hear.I mean they can vote,but how would they be informed voters ? Their choices will be based on what? What the Government wants them to know.If you aren't free to gain information,then your vote will be based on opinions crafted by 1)the dominant religion,or 2)the information the government wants you to use when forming an opinion.Is that really a free vote? No,not if the voters are voting with very limited information.Whatever information you have obtained about the Armenian Genocide is information that would far exceed that of Turk Citizens.They don't know very much about it.They aren't allowed to know about it.If you don't have a free press,then that's not a free vote.

i'm not sure how restricting access to information on the armenian genocide or youtube video's contrary to the national legend about kemal ataturk winds up being interpreted as the reason a secular military establishment candidate lost to an islamist.

it took us 90 years from our founding to mention in our constitution that owning other people as property wasn't allowed. it was another 50 years after that before lacking a penis was no longer a good reason to stop you from voting. it was another 45 years after that before there was actual enforcement of voting rights for people other than caucasians in states where that seemed like a bad idea.

turkey is 90 years into an experiment where a complete autocracy has been introducing the idea that people should govern themselves.

people in established democracies sometimes imagine what they were born into happened overnight. it didn't. and it won't happen that way elsewhere.

turkey will need to deal with it's past. it'll probably struggle with the armenian genocide the same way we still struggle with the aftermath of slavery in our society.

but they remain the best example of a secular democratic islamic society. i think you're premature in writing off that experiment. and i don't share your pessimism.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Will read whatever ya guys are writting after I get off a lil winning streak I been on.Don't want to f my mood.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i'm not sure how restricting access to information on the armenian genocide or youtube video's contrary to the national legend about kemal ataturk winds up being interpreted as the reason a secular military establishment candidate lost to an islamist.

it took us 90 years from our founding to mention in our constitution that owning other people as property wasn't allowed. it was another 50 years after that before lacking a penis was no longer a good reason to stop you from voting. it was another 45 years after that before there was actual enforcement of voting rights for people other than caucasians in states where that seemed like a bad idea.

turkey is 90 years into an experiment where a complete autocracy has been introducing the idea that people should govern themselves.

people in established democracies sometimes imagine what they were born into happened overnight. it didn't. and it won't happen that way elsewhere.

turkey will need to deal with it's past. it'll probably struggle with the aremenian genocide the same way we still struggle with the aftermath of slavery in our society.

but they remain the best example of a secular democratic islamic society. i think you're premature in writing off that experiment. and i don't share your pessimism.

I agree 100%. I know folks like to translate my viewing things with a historical perspective as an attempt to justify evil behavior...nothing could be further from the truth, evil is evil and must be confronted, evil doers can NEVER justify their behavior by pointing the finger at others, past or present BUT it isn't fair to expect instant democracy (what, just add blood and stir?) nor is it fair to single out one race, religion or culture as being "worse" than others simply because they are earlier in their evolutionary cycle and going through the same growing pains as others did in the past (therefore the historical perspective). Islam has far too many rules for my taste but then so does Christianity, Judaism and others...not attacking them ( no I am NOT anti-Christian, simply prefer another path), but rules often translate into law and failure to abide by said laws often leads to hate, fear and violence...today, it's a young woman being sentenced to lashes and jail for being raped, yesterday it was the Salem witch trials or the Inquisition...I think that instead of pointing fingers, we'd be better off if people of all faiths demonstrated a bit more tolerance and maybe even followed the basic beliefs of their chosen religion regarding same!

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

And I, for one, love it. I hope oil goes to $200 a barrel.

You are half way there as of today/yesterday.