Some Saturday Beyer Figures

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think purse money will be that big a factor. It's more about prestige. Being a successful dirt horse has always been more desireable in America.

I'd say though with older horses purse money and prestige pretty much coincide. A lot of people want to win the Arlington Million even though it is on the turf.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'd say though with older horses purse money and prestige pretty much coincide. A lot of people want to win the Arlington Million even though it is on the turf.

Winning the Met Mile is more prestigious and better on the resume than the Arlington Million, IMO.

If they had an Eclipse for milers in this country and you have two main contenders with the following wins:

A
Met Mile
BC Dirt Mile
Cigar Mile

B
Kilroe Mile
Shadwell Mile
BC Mile

Which do you think would be favored to win the award? I think that in a case like Nobiz, they aren't going to look at purse as much as which races could lead them to a championship. When you have millions and all of your friends have millions, having a champion might mean a little more than a horse that earns $1 million.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I love it how you always get this argument about how meaningless millions in purse money is and then when a horse is retired to the breeding shed by people with tons of money we are told how it is all business and they need to make as much money as possible.

You are 100% right the shieks are in this for the money.. The Phipps are trying to make ends meet with the new racino purse structure at Mountaineer..Lapenta needed War Pass to win Champagne because the 300k defeased the fact the his company stock which he owns 20 million shares(pure guess?) of was down a 1/16. Poor Liz Valando was so hoping No Biz was going to get place money in the Fountain of Youth so she would have down payment money for lovely 2 bedroom on intercoastal.. lol

Snipes get a grip its about winning, fun, and the glory.. Money is low down on the list if at all.

[blackthroatedwind]

As much as this pains me, Freddy is actually basically right, even if severly grammatically challenged.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

As much as this pains me, Freddy is actually basically right, even if severly grammatically challenged.

Sometimes,it's about the journey.

[blackthroatedwind]

True.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Winning the Met Mile is more prestigious and better on the resume than the Arlington Million, IMO.

If they had an Eclipse for milers in this country and you have two main contenders with the following wins:

A
Met Mile
BC Dirt Mile
Cigar Mile

B
Kilroe Mile
Shadwell Mile
BC Mile

Which do you think would be favored to win the award? I think that in a case like Nobiz, they aren't going to look at purse as much as which races could lead them to a championship. When you have millions and all of your friends have millions, having a champion might mean a little more than a horse that earns $1 million.

The Met Mile is still worth over $500,000. I can't really think of a race for older males that is $500,000 plus and isn't very prestigious. It isn't like the 2yo and 3yo divisions where the joke tracks throw huge purses out for crappy races.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The Met Mile is still worth over $500,000. I can't really think of a race for older males that is $500,000 plus and isn't very prestigious. It isn't like the 2yo and 3yo divisions where the joke tracks throw huge purses out for crappy races.

What about the Hawthorne Gold Cup? The Meadowlands Cup? The Oaklawn Hcp has lost most of it's luster. I don't think of prestige when I think of the New Orleans Hcp. The Mass Cap? The SA Hcp is nowhere near what it used to be and this year's field will be further proof of that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

What about the Hawthorne Gold Cup? The Meadowlands Cup? The Oaklawn Hcp has lost most of it's luster. I don't think of prestige when I think of the New Orleans Hcp. The Mass Cap? The SA Hcp is nowhere near what it used to be and this year's field will be further proof of that.

Yes, but other than them.

Hawthorne and the Meadowlands Cup may be $400K.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

What about the Hawthorne Gold Cup? The Meadowlands Cup? The Oaklawn Hcp has lost most of it's luster. I don't think of prestige when I think of the New Orleans Hcp. The Mass Cap? The SA Hcp is nowhere near what it used to be and this year's field will be further proof of that.

Hawthorne Gold Cup is a good example. The others are $500,000 and there aren't a ton of races being run for less than them that are that much more prestigious. There is certainly more money to be won on the dirt but you can also find some nice purses in races like the Arlington Million on turf that are also prestigious that you could easily campaign Showing Up and Nobiz completely in races for $500,000+ and simultaneously be running in the most prestigious races. I just don't see the point in running in races like the Manhattan Handicap for $400,000 when you could run in the Hollywood Gold Cup for $750,000 and be running in what is probably a more prestigious race.

[blackthroatedwind]

A lot of people prefer not to ship and Mrs. Valando might be happier winning a Grade 1 on the Belmont Stakes undercard than the Hollywood Gold Cup.

I might be wrong, but I think other than accomplishing something unusual, NoBiz has already kind of established his market value. A win in either race you are discussing isn't going to change that. He would have to win races like the Whitney, Woodward, Jockey Club Gold Cup and, maybe, the BC Polytrack Classic, to seriously change that. And even then I don't know how sexy he will ever be.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

A lot of people prefer not to ship and Mrs. Valando might be happier winning a Grade 1 on the Belmont Stakes undercard than the Hollywood Gold Cup.

I might be wrong, but I think other than accomplishing something unusual, NoBiz has already kind of established his market value. A win in either race you are discussing isn't going to change that. He would have to win races like the Whitney, Woodward, Jockey Club Gold Cup and, maybe, the BC Polytrack Classic, to seriously change that. And even then I don't know how sexy he will ever be.

I guess that is why I'd like to see them have some fun with it. Seek out the best races and don't worry about surfaces.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I guess that is why I'd like to see them have some fun with it. Seek out the best races and don't worry about surfaces.

Seeking out what's in the best interests of the horse, which may or may not be shipping back and forth across the country, also comes into play. However, I would bet my last dollar that the owner of NoBiz couldn't possibly care less about winning a " big " race in California.

Trainers don't usually like to switch back and forth between surfaces, and when it is someone like Shug saying this, and not lessers, I tend to take it at face value. Barcley Tagg runs his horses, and wants to win, and I think in this case it's pretty fair to trust his judgement. I'm reasonably sure he hasn't ruled out running NoBiz on the dirt again. He's no fool.....he knows who's out there.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And even then I don't know how sexy he will ever be.

This is one gorgeous horse but you are right his pedigree isn't fashionable and when he stands he won't have a atypical fantastic book of mares. If he makes it it will be because he EARNED IT as a stallion.

I will say he is a nice as looking horse as you will find.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Seeking out what's in the best interests of the horse, which may or may not be shipping back and forth across the country, also comes into play. However, I would bet my last dollar that the owner of NoBiz couldn't possibly care less about winning a " big " race in California.

Trainers don't usually like to switch back and forth between surfaces, and when it is someone like Shug saying this, and not lessers, I tend to take it at face value. Barcley Tagg runs his horses, and wants to win, and I think in this case it's pretty fair to trust his judgement. I'm reasonably sure he hasn't ruled out running NoBiz on the dirt again. He's no fool.....he knows who's out there.

I know Farish is the same way. They could run the Goodwood for $10 million and the JCGC for $10 and he'd rather win in NY. They could run a grade one for free at Saratoga and the Phipps would rather win that then the Delaware Hcp. With Nobiz, I at least like the fact that they will ship, as evidenced by him coming out for the Hollywood Derby but I would agree with you that if it came down to chosing between a big one in Cali and a smaller one in NY, they will be in NY.

I agree with you that shipping back and forth across the country is probably not a good thing and for most horses, switching back and forth between surfaces probably isn't going to work either. Lava Man was one that it worked for. I believe that there are surely some others that could do it if given the opportunity. Barbaro is another recent example. I think that most trainers just tend to play it safe and stick with what's proven to work and there's nothing wrong with that.

Getting back to Nobiz, I am reminded that I read that when he was running on dirt, he did run down pretty bad. If that's still an issue, then I could see shelving any plans to return to the dirt. But if it's at all possible, then I agree that Tagg almost HAS to consider it based on what's out there.

[blackthroatedwind]

No dirt in Nobiz's future according to Tagg in a DRF article.....


" Nobiz Like Shobiz had a strong season on turf following the Kentucky Derby, and will remain on grass this year.

"I'd like to win a couple of Grade 1's on turf with him," he said. "That would enhance his stud value. He's already a Grade 1 winner on dirt. I think he's best suited to a mile or a mile and a sixteenth."

[justindew]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

No dirt in Nobiz's future according to Tagg in a DRF article.....


" Nobiz Like Shobiz had a strong season on turf following the Kentucky Derby, and will remain on grass this year.

"I'd like to win a couple of Grade 1's on turf with him," he said. "That would enhance his stud value. He's already a Grade 1 winner on dirt. I think he's best suited to a mile or a mile and a sixteenth."

It's probably better to leave the grass Grade 1s to Nobiz, and the dirt Grade 1s to Zanjero.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I think more of what Danzig was referring to was a situation like with Lawyer Ron last year. At this point in 2007 LR was just an allowance winner and most were dubious about his ability to step up and win bigger races. He proved that he was a quality older horse, winning the Oaklawn Handicap, Whitney, and Woodward en route to an Eclipse Award. Someone like that could definitely surface, as you insinuated in your post.

NT

yeah, something like that. and lawyer ron made a splash in a big way, not just winning a prestigious race, but beating the clock in the process.
now, whether he faced top notch competition, or whether he was the best of what's left....he won the race, he ran in it, and others chose not to-you can only beat who shows up. kudos to him and the man he was named for, else he'd have been at stonewall!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Yeah that purse money is real motiavation for the Jackson's and Valando..

well, yeah, it is...every owner out there no doubt wants to lead the way in earnings, or wins, or biggest trophy....some big egos in this sport. besides, rich people obviously like money! the more, the better i'd say.