Big Brown Beyer 109

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Better Than Honour

He was tired. Not exhausted, but tired. A freak would be a horse throwing up a sub 2:00 time with a 115 beyer. He is actually just very typical of most derby winners. Nothing more. He just hasn't had to beat much....

Just your typical undefeated Derby winner coming from the 20 post to win by 4+ lengths in his 4th lifetime start.

--Dunbar

[Better Than Honour]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Just your typical undefeated Derby winner coming from the 20 post to win by 4+ lengths in his 4th lifetime start.

--Dunbar

That doesn't make him a freak. Just a very good horse. He is probably comparable to Street Sense or Hard Spun, which is great, but he is no freak. Ghostzapper was a freak. This horse has a long way to go.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Better Than Honour

That doesn't make him a freak. Just a very good horse. He is probably comparable to Street Sense or Hard Spun, which is great, but he is no freak. Ghostzapper was a freak. This horse has a long way to go.

It's a hell of a start to becoming a freak. When and if he beats a Curlin with a 125 BSF will confirm him a Freak

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Better Than Honour

That doesn't make him a freak. Just a very good horse. He is probably comparable to Street Sense or Hard Spun, which is great, but he is no freak. Ghostzapper was a freak. This horse has a long way to go.

I am a huge HardSpun fan and also have a good liking to Street Sense...I am not so sure Street Sense would have won this derby from the 20 post. No shot Hard Spun would had won either from the 20 either.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I am a huge HardSpun fan and also have a good liking to Street Sense...I am not so sure Street Sense would have won this derby from the 20 post. No shot Hard Spun would had won either from the 20 either.

Really? I think it would have hindered him less than anybody. Borel could have just done the same move he did with Denis of Cork early and had him in the same position without losing more than a length.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

.....wow, this horse HAS PAID WORKOUTS...... he in my opinoin a better horse than streat sense.......

How could Big Brown be better a 'better' horse than Street Sense at this point of comparison of their careers? For starters, Street Sense had a juvenile campaign and was a juvenile champion. Secondly, Street Sense faced a vastly and inarguably better, more accomplished group of foes/contemporaries than Big Brown, through the same comparable period of their careers so far. And by speed figure ratings from all three major evaluators of speed, Street Sense is faster than Big Brown.

[The Bid]

If Hard Spun ran with these horses from the 20 I believe he would have won. SS would have had trouble from that draw because of running style.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Bid

If Hard Spun ran with these horses from the 20 I believe he would have won. SS would have had trouble from that draw because of running style.

Especially if all the other speed took back and let him have the lead all to himself.

[The Bid]

It would have been over 660 yards into the race if that were the case. This years group is just not that good.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Kasept

How could Big Brown be better a 'better' horse than Street Sense at this point of comparison of their careers? For starters, Street Sense had a juvenile campaign and was a juvenile champion. Secondly, Street Sense faced a vastly and inarguably better, more accomplished group of foes/contemporaries than Big Brown, through the same comparable period of their careers so far. And by speed figure ratings from all three major evaluators of speed, Street Sense is faster than Big Brown.

didn't Big Brown get a minus 3 for the FD? I don't think Street Sense was ever that low, I'd also like to know what TG# BB earned in the derby. My guess is its pretty low.

just looking at the last two Big Brown performances, I'd have to say that both of them were better than anything Street Sense put up. Street Sense needed the pace and trip for his big days. Big Brown makes the pace and can race wide and get the job done. I think as individual performances they are better.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

How could Big Brown be better a 'better' horse than Street Sense at this point of comparison of their careers? For starters, Street Sense had a juvenile campaign and was a juvenile champion. Secondly, Street Sense faced a vastly and inarguably better, more accomplished group of foes/contemporaries than Big Brown, through the same comparable period of their careers so far. And by speed figure ratings from all three major evaluators of speed, Street Sense is faster than Big Brown.

Street Sense is not nor will ever be as talented as Big Brown. I loved Street Sense the race horse. He was trained to perfection by a master. He evolved traditionally and was simply a classy colt. He could not win this years FD from post 12 in his third start even against these rats. And he wouldn't have won this years derby in his 4th start from post 20.. Steve let's face it Big Brown really has been rushed and has handled extreme adversity.. Do I think he is the greatest colt ever no but Seattle Slew wasn't Seattle Slew till he was Seattle Slew. Lets wait and see.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Street Sense is not nor will ever be as talented as Big Brown. I loved Street Sense the race horse. He was trained to perfection by a master. He evolved traditionally and was simply a classy colt. He could not win this years FD from post 12 in his third start even against these rats. And he wouldn't have won this years derby in his 4th start from post 20.. Steve let's face it Big Brown really has been rushed and has handled extreme adversity.. Do I think he is the greatest colt ever no but Seattle Slew wasn't Seattle Slew till he was Seattle Slew. Lets wait and see.

That's exactly my biggest problem with it all. He could run two more races against nothing and retire completely unproven. Slew didn't fully prove himself until he was four which this horse will never get the chance to.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Street Sense is not nor will ever be as talented as Big Brown. I loved Street Sense the race horse.

Street Sense has run faster then Big Brown at this point in his career, but that has nothing to do with talent

You are making statements that so far are not correct. Well see how it plays out but Curlin and Street Sense were separated by a nose, I don't see Big Brown in their class as of yet, certainly not on figures and on pure talent its debatable.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Street Sense has run faster then Big Brown at this point in his career, but that has nothing to do with talent

You are making statements that so far are not correct. Well see how it plays out but Curlin and Street Sense were separated by a nose, I don't see Big Brown in their class as of yet, certainly not on figures and on pure talent its debatable.

Again, Street Sense earned a PF of -52 in winning last year's Derby, Big Brown got a -68, I don't recall any race of SS's that earned a -89 like BB did in his Fla Derby. I haven't seen anything official yet but hear rumors that TG may give BB's Derby a -5...I don't have to tell anyone where that would place the race! Street Sense had accomplished more obviously as BCJ winner but to say he was faster simply isn't true, SS would have been neck and neck with Eight Belles and the filly had trouble twice!

[fantini33]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

did you see that big brown didnt even look like he ran a race as he came back to get unsaddled? he is a freak.

Looked like he was ready for another lap...

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Again, Street Sense earned a PF of -52 in winning last year's Derby, Big Brown got a -68, I don't recall any race of SS's that earned a -89 like BB did in his Fla Derby. I haven't seen anything official yet but hear rumors that TG may give BB's Derby a -5...I don't have to tell anyone where that would place the race! Street Sense had accomplished more obviously as BCJ winner but to say he was faster simply isn't true, SS would have been neck and neck with Eight Belles and the filly had trouble twice!

I am not using those figures but the Beyer figures, also on CJ's figures he is faster at this point as well.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Street Sense has run faster then Big Brown at this point in his career, but that has nothing to do with talent

You are making statements that so far are not correct. Well see how it plays out but Curlin and Street Sense were separated by a nose, I don't see Big Brown in their class as of yet, certainly not on figures and on pure talent its debatable.

I am not saying Street Sense wasn't faster in his 7 or 8th race vs. Big Brown 3rd or 4th.. Look I am far from making him the greatest ever. If the horse would have won buy 8 lengths would that have had more indication of how talented he is? I think he won as well as any colt could have given his stats... 4 races only 1 as a two year old on the grass no less and he had never rated in a race and does with complete ease from a ridiculous starting position. At this stage in there development I am pretty sure Street sense would have found the above to difficult to overcome

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

That's exactly my biggest problem with it all. He could run two more races against nothing and retire completely unproven. Slew didn't fully prove himself until he was four which this horse will never get the chance to.

its hard they simply don't race horse that much anymore..Maybe IEAH won't hit the bid lol? I wonder if Claiborne will buy him it would be a welcomed change on the connection side.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I am not saying Street Sense wasn't faster in his 7 or 8th race vs. Big Brown 3rd or 4th.. Look I am far from making him the greatest ever. If the horse would have won buy 8 lengths would that have had more indication of how talented he is? I think he won as well as any colt could have given his stats... 4 races only 1 as a two year old on the grass no less and he had never rated in a race and does with complete ease from a ridiculous starting position. At this stage in there development I am pretty sure Street sense would have found the above to difficult to overcome

I buy that he may develope a bit, but I associate 115-120 beyer figures with good horses, let along "freaks"

doesn't anyone remember much better horses then this losing in the Preakness? Fortunately for him its hard to find any Red Bullets in this group.

[The Bid]

If Spectacular Bid can lose a TC bid, then this horse can