Wayne Catalano-Frank Calebrese

[PSH]

I asked this same question a couple of years ago about the so called "Super Trainers" like Dutrow, Contessa (would also apply today), and the answer i received which makes some sense is that these trainers have so much stock that they generally have multiple horses that they can apply to different races in the condition book. So, they generally have choices on which horses that they can drop down in the claiming races whereby the average trainer generally either has one option or zero....

Given the huge amount of stock that these trainers have gives them a big advantage. Say, "Supertrainer" sees a race for 25K claimers in a certain condition they can choose whether to drop down a 30K, 35K or 40K claimer into that particular spot....

Not saying that something else isn't going on, but the math of sheer numbers gives these guys a huge advantage.

PSH

[jwkniska]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Oh yeah I forgot that Gulfstream was a tremendous meet this year with very little bottom level claiming races. STUPID, CLUELESS ME!!!

It's just odd how they win at such an extreme clip in their backyard and how it drops dramatically when they go ANYWHERE else. I guess it's because they're smarter than every owner and trainer in Chicago. That's the only reason.

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS.

JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

I'm not sure exactly what their Keeneland/GP numbers are, but they run only certain horses there and they're also always viable to win, when entered.... and normally at a pretty good price too.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Oh yeah I forgot that Gulfstream was a tremendous meet this year with very little bottom level claiming races. STUPID, CLUELESS ME!!!

It's just odd how they win at such an extreme clip in their backyard and how it drops dramatically when they go ANYWHERE else. I guess it's because they're smarter than every owner and trainer in Chicago. That's the only reason.

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS.

JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

You go tell me who they're beating that they shouldn't be beating.

So far, they've won, in order:
- An off the turf overnight stake (which eliminated the competitive form of nearly all the field) with a horse who had already won a Grade III over the track
- $10K claimer
- $40K maiden claimer
- $15K claimer
- $7.5K claimer
- $10K claimer
- $14K claimer
- $25K maiden claimer
- $32.5K claimer
- $10K claimer
- AOC $50K claimer
- $25K claimer

Very, very, very tough, as I'm sure you know, to win these types of races with horses coming off very competitive efforts at Keeneland and Oaklawn, when then stacked up against horses coming off of efforts at Hawthorne.

I am totally missing the point...obviously.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by GBBob

you really think they're juicing?

They are going to go 0-8 pretty soon over a weekend and there will be a lot of opportunties to make money...

i don't know that bob, but something seems suspicious. maybe they're just better at this than anyone else, but I find that hard to believe.
i am counting on catching some of these early season winners when they race back the second or third time at 1-2 odds and running off the board.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

You don't have to tell me this, I agree. If I didn't know how they do things, then I would be thinking they are cheating, but I understand the operation. The guy that 'runs the show' is a pretty sharp claiming guy.

he is the brains of the outfit thats for sure. i sometimes wonder how well they would do without him.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

he is the brains of the outfit thats for sure. i sometimes wonder how well they would do without him.

Leving is his name I think, he gets fired like monthly

Thomas M. Amoss $2,018,748 32%
Basically did at FG what Catalano does in Chicago.
W. Bret Calhoun $1,745,865 30%
This guy has always been suspect
Jamie Ness $1,129,774 35%
Same with this one
Stephanie S. Beattie $941,075 37%
Don't get me started
Brian A. Lynch $903,821 33%
Stronach's b.itch. Check the win percentage at non-Magna tracks.

The others have ridiculously high win percentages and he SMOKES them. It's not even close. It's outlandish. It's like Jesus is his co-pilot.



Wayne M. Catalano $849,249 43%

Holy s.hit!! He's the best trainer in America!!!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Holy s.hit!! He's the best trainer in America!!!

Since being disingenuous is sort of your thing, I get that I'm wasting my time responding.

But really, if this is all so outrageous, go find the horses that should have beaten them in their 12 wins.

I'd imagine, if you were for once willing to be intellectually honest, that you would be hard pressed to find more than a dozen combined.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Scav

Leving is his name I think, he gets fired like monthly

yes Leving, as you would say its so comedy how many times they have a falling out then get back together.

here are the numbers I have for Catalano this year
Florida 23/65 35.4%
Illinois 12/18 66.7%

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

yes Leving, as you would say its so comedy how many times they have a falling out then get back together.

here are the numbers I have for Catalano this year
Florida 23/65 35.4%
Illinois 12/18 66.7%

And by meet's end, the Illinois numbers will be only slightly better than the Florida numbers.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

And by meet's end, the Illinois numbers will be only slightly better than the Florida numbers.

i'd agree with that, but still you're talking about a lofty batting average.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Since being disingenuous is sort of your thing, I get that I'm wasting my time responding.

But really, if this is all so outrageous, go find the horses that should have beaten them in their 12 wins.

I'd imagine, if you were for once willing to be intellectually honest, that you would be hard pressed to find more than a dozen combined.

How about you find 10 trainers in the past three years that have a winning percentage that high.

If you don't, you can come back and tell me that this opportunity Catalano has taken advantage of only happens in Chicago, douchebag.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

i'd agree with that, but still you're talking about a lofty batting average.

It sure is, but like Scav said, I think it has a whole lot more to do with the way they run their operation than anything else.

So many of their wins this year will come from claiming a horse, dropping it, winning, and then losing the horse. You're going to win a better percentage of races when you're putting horses either where they belong, or below where they belong and being willing to lose them to turn a small profit on the purse/claim.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

How about you find 10 trainers in the past three years that have a winning percentage that high.

If you don't, you can come back and tell me that this opportunity Catalano has taken advantage of only happens in Chicago, douchebag.

Jesus, you're tired.

You're crying about numbers that a guy racks up. I continue to say that it makes perfect sense given who he is running his horses against.

So your question is terribly irrelevant to what I'm saying, and my question about which races exactly they shouldn't be winning remains terribly relevant.

I'm not particularly concerned with his final winning percentage as opposed to other trainers -- I'm concerned with all this hemming and hawing about the fact that he is winning so much, when nobody is taking the time to figure out that nearly all of these horses should be winning their races in the first place. That leads to the big numbers, obviously, which I've already covered.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It sure is, but like Scav said, I think it has a whole lot more to do with the way they run their operation than anything else.

since they have so much success, why do you think that nobody else has decided to run their operation in the same manner you described?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

since they have so much success, why do you think that nobody else has decided to run their operation in the same manner you described?

They're not the only guys effectively playing the claiming game out there.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

since they have so much success, why do you think that nobody else has decided to run their operation in the same manner you described?

How many people have the capital that Calabrese has? You realize how much that dude is worth right?

2ndly, he don't care about losing money, he just wants to be the big magaffer.....

[TheSpyder]

What is odd is that even favorites only win 30% of the time. What is the ROI so far? Just seems llike this cannot go on or if it does, I got to believe it's more than great horses and management.

Spyder

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

YET you have the audacity to say give their stock to about any trainer on the Chicago circuit and they would win with at least a 50% clip when the GOD DAMN numbers when their horses are claimed ARE SINGLE DIGITS. JESUSTAPDANCINGCHRIST PEOPLE ARE ****ING NAIVE

This is true, but as Brian and others have pointed out, Catalano often drops a horse in class, wins the race, and loses the horse. Then the animal is often moved up in class with new connections in its next start. This is a big reason for the low % when one of their's gets claimed.

I dont know the answer to the question of what exactly they get away with here. Would I be shocked to learn that they have engaged in widespread activities that circumvented the rules? Absolutely not. But I don't think that it is completely outrageous (or naive) to point to their strategy in the claiming game as a BIG factor in their hig win %. Is it the only factor? Perhaps not, but I don't think we really know for sure.

[Scav]

Furthermore, they really don't lose that much money in that they claim for 10k and drop to 5k, but the purse for a 5k race is 10k, so they make 1k if they get claimed, and if they don't, they run back in the same spot and then make2k + the 5k once they do get claimed