Big Brown and Winstrol....questions

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

I think it would be great but there is no way we could come close to doing what HK does. First of all the scope of racing here makes it impossible to even do it at one track, let alone across the board. We simply dont have the money and the structure of racing is not suited to their rules. All the vets there work for the Jockey Club and the penalities are far more severe, including jail time for intentional violations. That is a far greater deterient than cameras. The problem I have with the cameras is who exactly will be watching all the film? Plus identifing the horses on tape will be close to impossible. I honestly dont think there are tons of bettors sitting on the sidelines waiting for stricter rules.

[Bobby Fischer]

every 15 days...


so basically he's not giving him THAT much steroids at all - but if we test Big Brown, there is a good honest theraupuetic reason for that positive....

In other words should a positve steroid test come out on Brown, he has a good excuse.


Humans use 1-2 ccs a day , many EVERY DAY. If they are a good guy, or gal, they quit for a month after a month. If they don't care the tolerance happens fairly quick and if they want to maintain that effect they may increase the dosage.

Winstrol the cut-up drug.
Forget the hype, It will make you or a horse big. The reason it is a "cut drug" is that it doesn't convert to estrogen as much. Less androgenwhatever. There are some other roids that will pack on body weight more, but you get the estrogen effect. So bodybuilders take it closer to a contest because it reduces the breasts and allows them them to maintain or actually Gain muscle while on a diet of zero fat very little water or carbs.


Not saying Brown is getting a shot every day. I really don't keep track of that.

Maybe some cheaper horses are getting a couple times a week from barns that have the connection capital and morality.

Some trainers, not necessarily Dutrow, get their hands on a filly, and you study it because you are expecting it to look like a tank in a month or two.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No



From what I know roughly about 70% of horses run on them. About 90% of trainers use them. Yes and No




People will question it if he breaks down or not.




This is a dumb question. It's legal - has been used in horses since the late 60's and probably the bulk of his competition is also using them.

this is all true and from what i understand almost all of dutrows horses get them . the hubuub about eight belles is TV crap. they are LEGAL.

[The Bid]

Steroids dont do **** for a horse, its retarded

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Steroids dont do **** for a horse, its retarded

hey i'm with you. but they are legal. when i brought this up on a different thread and the race day meds . people hammered me. these horses that run here would not be able to breed in other countries. this is capitalism baby, they got to make a buck from cradle to grave on these horses. the rules right now are set up to give racing a black eye in this country. and i'm not one of those PETA morons. some of what happens is asked for !

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You have to be very careful about giving steroids to fillies, if you are planning on breeding the fillies after they retire. Steroids can lessen their chances of being able to get in foal.

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Exactly.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

every 15 days...


so basically he's not giving him THAT much steroids at all - but if we test Big Brown, there is a good honest theraupuetic reason for that positive....

In other words should a positve steroid test come out on Brown, he has a good excuse.


Humans use 1-2 ccs a day , many EVERY DAY. If they are a good guy, or gal, they quit for a month after a month. If they don't care the tolerance happens fairly quick and if they want to maintain that effect they may increase the dosage.

Winstrol the cut-up drug.
Forget the hype, It will make you or a horse big. The reason it is a "cut drug" is that it doesn't convert to estrogen as much. Less androgenwhatever. There are some other roids that will pack on body weight more, but you get the estrogen effect. So bodybuilders take it closer to a contest because it reduces the breasts and allows them them to maintain or actually Gain muscle while on a diet of zero fat very little water or carbs.


Not saying Brown is getting a shot every day. I really don't keep track of that.

Maybe some cheaper horses are getting a couple times a week from barns that have the connection capital and morality.

Some trainers, not necessarily Dutrow, get their hands on a filly, and you study it because you are expecting it to look like a tank in a month or two.

Every two weeks is considered a full dose. I don't think there are any horses out there getting steroids more than once every two weeks. Any more than once every two weeks and you would have a horse coming out of his or her skin. I believe some guys do once every 3 weeks.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think it would be great but there is no way we could come close to doing what HK does. First of all the scope of racing here makes it impossible to even do it at one track, let alone across the board. We simply dont have the money and the structure of racing is not suited to their rules. All the vets there work for the Jockey Club and the penalities are far more severe, including jail time for intentional violations. That is a far greater deterient than cameras. The problem I have with the cameras is who exactly will be watching all the film? Plus identifing the horses on tape will be close to impossible. I honestly dont think there are tons of bettors sitting on the sidelines waiting for stricter rules.

I think there are a ton of bettors who have walked away from the sport due to their belief that the trainers with the best vets and the best drugs are winning all the races. They see some of the so-called "super trainers" moving horses up 5-10 lengths overnight off a claim. I hear people complain about this all the time. Some of these fans will still come out once in a while and bet small, but they don't take it seriously any more. Some fans have given up racing entirely because of the integrity issue.

I don't see why they couldn't implement a system similar to Hong Kong at the major US tracks. If they had to cut the purses by 5% to pay for it, then so be it.

I heard that in Asia, every horse can be identified when training in the morning. Each horse has his own unique identification number on his saddle cloth and the trainer's name is also on the saddle cloth. I think they should do that here.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

Dude that filly def. did not need steroids , lol , omg on hay and oats she was still like getting a tiger by the tail.

Honu, Has that Aldeberan colt come in yet that Team Hughes bought last month in Kentucky? He looked like a nice colt.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

[Danzig]

i'd really appreciate if people would NOT interject these facts to clutter up peoples' perfectly nice threads.

[VOL JACK]

Drugs is on the muscle!!!!!

Reminds me of my wife, I say one thing, she comes back with ten reasons why I am wrong.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Here is the view of one farm owner:

Cynthia McGinnes, the co-owner of Thornmar in Chestertown, Md., a 280-acre spread that is one of the state's largest commercial breeding farms, said she was so distressed by an apparent rise in steroid use that she was considering quitting the business.

''I would guess that up to 80 percent of the fillies coming off the track to our farm are on steroids,'' she said. ''They come off the race track so messed up that you can't breed them for a year, and some of them never fully recover. It ruins them. The whole situation is unbelievable and very, very discouraging.''

Here is the entire article:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

So are you saying that all his fillies could walk right off the track and be bred a month or two later with no problem?

[letswastemoney]

just because something is legal doesnt make it right

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Honu, Has that Aldeberan colt come in yet that Team Hughes bought last month in Kentucky? He looked like a nice colt.

No not yet , I saw him breeze , I agree he looks pretty nice.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think there are a ton of bettors who have walked away from the sport due to their belief that the trainers with the best vets and the best drugs are winning all the races. They see some of the so-called "super trainers" moving horses up 5-10 lengths overnight off a claim. I hear people complain about this all the time. Some of these fans will still come out once in a while and bet small, but they don't take it seriously any more. Some fans have given up racing entirely because of the integrity issue.

I don't see why they couldn't implement a system similar to Hong Kong at the major US tracks. If they had to cut the purses by 5% to pay for it, then so be it.

I heard that in Asia, every horse can be identified when training in the morning. Each horse has his own unique identification number on his saddle cloth and the trainer's name is also on the saddle cloth. I think they should do that here.

What you say about people walking away is probably correct but i dont see them returning. I also dont see big move ups off claims stopping regardless of the rules. What happens when we ban everything and that still happens? The reality of the situation and the perception are always going to be 2 different things.

The system in Hong Kong relies on one very secure and fairly isolated barn area, vets that work for the track, all vet work published for all to see and most importantly laws that support it. The system there is set up by the govenment that has very different laws than we do. It just is not feasable here. Maybe we could try to implement some things but because of the set up over there most simply arent applicable. Not to mention the cost which would be far greater than 5% of the purses.

When i was over there i asked a friend of mine who trains there what happens if you switch the saddle towels (which also have a microchip in it and all activity on the track is electronically timed). He told me you can get jail time.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

I believe every single one of those champion female horses he trained had their first foal in the first season they were covered.

Did all of them catch on the very first cover? How would I know ... however, all of them did their job and produced a foal...and in some cases very good ones.

It's not like broodmares catch every cover.