What Smarty Jones faced in 2004 & what Big Brown faces on Saturday....the difference?

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's arguable that Birdstone, Rock Hard Ten and Eddington were all better than any horse Big Brown has ever faced.

Didn't see your post before I fired away...

My apologies.

And my inclusion of Purge isn't really justified. He didn't do too much.

Slipped that Grade One win in and off to the shed.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

This thread makes me

There a lot here like that

[magic_idol]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Big Brown isn't facing similar company.

This comment says it all

[philcski]

Bunch of crazytalk in this thread.

2004 field was infinitely better than this group...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Smarty was like 9-0-0 at that point?

No Eddington, Rock Hard Ten, or Birdstone.
After being a doubter after the Derby, this
race firmly stated that this horse was
very talented and extraordinarily tough for me.

This was the race that showed Smarty was
a champion.

Just not the belmont champion...or triple crown champion

[cowgirlintexas]

I miss Smarty

Almost felt like the days gone by when he was making his bid for the crown. Wonder if we will ever see that type of enthusiasm again over a horse. Was a really great story all the way around.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by philcski

Bunch of crazytalk in this thread.

2004 field was infinitely better than this group...

It isnt even close no matter how you feel about Big Brown or Smarty Jones. 2004's overall group was undoubtedly faster. Regardless, its not like it would have made too much of a difference in Smarty's fate. His belmont was slow and its not like it took an earth shattering performance to beat him.

[lemoncrush]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I have no idea who Ready's Echo is. Everytime I see his name I think of the horse that was a bad 2nd to Majestic Warrior in the Hopeful who then ran last in the Champagne. The only thing I know about him is that he's not that horse. Which is probably a good thing...

you're thinking of ready's image, who I believe is also running Saturday in the Woody Stephens.
Ready's Echo is also a pletcher horse, and seems to actually want more ground. despite being by More than Ready.
He's a deep closer, who showed an explosive turn of foot in his maiden race last summer, and then again in his maiden win this past March.
He just missed in an ill-timed ride by JV in an allowance race at Keenland, and then didn't run until the very end in the Peter Pan.
He's over his head here, and with his running style, 3rd is probably his ceiling, unless Denis or Cork and/or Casino drive both exert too much energy early, then I could see him running up for a non-threatening 2nd.

[slotdirt]

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that a More than Ready with Kingmambo as a damsire could travel a route of ground. More than Ready has actually had some pretty significant winners on the grass going long in both Australia and Europe in his short career.

[Thunder Gulch]

Agree with a lot of you that the field in general was tougher, and the fact that Birdstone won a G1 on this track was huge.

I don't remember that 2004 crop being great, but I guarantee there were more than one or two that had posted 100 Beyers in routes, unlike this year's group.

[Scav]

If this means anything, Jerry Brown of Thorograph has a $25 bet with a TG board member on who hits the finish line first, the member has Big Brown, and Jerry Brown has ANAK NAKAL

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He's also the same guy who blew the Triple Crown with Real Quiet when he sent that one after Grand Slam and Chilito, two horses that could only have won the Belmont as part of a relay team, at the three eighths pole.

A very wise man once told me that Kent rode that race like he just wanted to get it over with. Of course, it took one of the all time great rides by Gary Stevens to beat him.

I may be mis-remembering, but didn't desormeax make quite early moves with Real Quiet in both the KY Derby and Preakness and get away with it?? I'm almost certain at least the Derby was a very early move. Wasn't he just repeating what worked in the first two legs?

[Oaklawnfan]

Originally Posted by cowgirlintexas

I miss Smarty

Almost felt like the days gone by when he was making his bid for the crown. Wonder if we will ever see that type of enthusiasm again over a horse. Was a really great story all the way around.

I'm anxious to see his babies race. Shouldn't be too long.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Oaklawnfan

I'm anxious to see his babies race. Shouldn't be too long.

It's always good to get disappointment out of the way as quickly as possible.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I may be mis-remembering, but didn't desormeax make quite early moves with Real Quiet in both the KY Derby and Preakness and get away with it?? I'm almost certain at least the Derby was a very early move. Wasn't he just repeating what worked in the first two legs?

His ride on Medaglia D'oro wasn't much better, he should have won that year also. At 18-17/1 if my memory serves me correct.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by CSC

His ride on Medaglia D'oro wasn't much better, he should have won that year also. At 18-17/1 if my memory serves me correct.

Yes, he should have won going 12furlongs on a horse that was 1-6 beyond 9f and the one in which he did win was in the slop against a horse coming back from a 180+ layoff.

Kent did nothing wrong on MDO. The horse simply didnt want to go that far that fast.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yes, he should have won going 12furlongs on a horse that was 1-6 beyond 9f and the one in which he did win was in the slop against a horse coming back from a 180+ layoff.

Kent did nothing wrong on MDO. The horse simply didnt want to go that far that fast.

I disagree, as per Kent D 's weakness at times he moved early and got caught on the inside of Sarava on a track that doesn't favor being on the inside. Run the race 3 times, and In my opinion Sarava is not a better horse than Medaglia Doro.

A little perpective about Medaglia Doro's record over 9 furlongs, once you throw out the derby (which he pretty much was wiped out at the start but still finished 4th) and preakness, he finished 2nd to Candy Ride in the Pacific Classic in a race run in 1:59 to a horse that earned a 121 beyer, he finished second in the BC to Pleasantly Perfect while contesting a hot pace with Congaree, and he narrowly got beaten in the Dubai World Cup to Pleasantly Perfect by 3/4 of a lengths. Yes you are correct in that 1-6 stat, but let's be Realistic he was running against some awfully nice horses, in some very tough races.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by CSC

I disagree, as per Kent D 's weakness at times he moved early and got caught on the inside of Sarava on a track that doesn't favor being on the inside. Run the race 3 times, and In my opinion Sarava is not a better horse than Medaglia Doro.

A little perpective about Medaglia Doro's record over 9 furlongs, once you throw out the derby (which he pretty much was wiped out at the start but still finished 4th) and preakness, he finished 2nd to Candy Ride in the Pacific Classic in a race run in 1:59 to a horse that earned a 121 beyer, he finished second in the BC to Pleasantly Perfect while contesting a hot pace with Congaree, and he narrowly got beaten in the Dubai World Cup to Pleasantly Perfect by 3/4 of a lengths. Yes you are correct in that 1-6 stat, but let's be Realistic he was running against some awfully nice horses, in some very tough races.

CSC I think you need to go over to Youtube and watch the race again. MDO's running style was being up and on the lead. War Emblem made the early move inside so he moved to repulse the bid. He kept MDO in the 2-3 path the whole way. The only reason Sarava was on the outside is because he was the 12 horse and Edgar kept him outside. Im reasonably sure that most any jockey would not be worried about the 70-1 shot on the outside. Kent rode to instructions and Frankel said after the race there was no problem with the ride. The only reason he lost the mount was because Frankel kept MDO at Saratoga for the summer and Bailey was his Go to Guy on the east coast.

As far as being 1-6, you want me to throw out half the races with lame excuses. In his second to Candy Ride, he got smoked and he finished second because it was a four horse field. He finished second to PP twice. Yes another nice horse but i dont think as good as MDO up to 9f. I think MDO only lost one race up to 9f (the wood).

So what do the numbers tell me? Without subjectively picking your way through, MDO was a horse that was great up 9f and not great beyond.

[CSC]

Here is the replay of the 2002 Belmont. Yep Medaglia Doro sure packs it in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYcdUcjQNu4

[CSC]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

CSC I think you need to go over to Youtube and watch the race again. MDO's running style was being up and on the lead. War Emblem made the early move inside so he moved to repulse the bid. He kept MDO in the 2-3 path the whole way. The only reason Sarava was on the outside is because he was the 12 horse and Edgar kept him outside. Im reasonably sure that most any jockey would not be worried about the 70-1 shot on the outside. Kent rode to instructions and Frankel said after the race there was no problem with the ride. The only reason he lost the mount was because Frankel kept MDO at Saratoga for the summer and Bailey was his Go to Guy on the east coast.

As far as being 1-6, you want me to throw out half the races with lame excuses. In his second to Candy Ride, he got smoked and he finished second because it was a four horse field. He finished second to PP twice. Yes another nice horse but i dont think as good as MDO up to 9f. I think MDO only lost one race up to 9f (the wood).

So what do the numbers tell me? Without subjectively picking your way through, MDO was a horse that was great up 9f and not great beyond.

I respectively disagree. I will concede one part he was probably at his best at 1 1 /8. However that doesn't mean he couldn't get 1 1/4 or he shouldn't have won the Belmont.