Cards at Saratoga

[parsixfarms]

In many respects, the racing office is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation on the overnight stakes program. My sense is that a few years ago, several NW2x or NW3X allowance-type horses were shipping to places like Monmouth or Delaware to run in overnight/$70K stakes races. To keep them at home, NYRA bolstered its own overnight program. One of the unforeseen consequences is that, given the state of racing today, it has cannibalized the overnight allowance program (especially with 3YO races, where the stakes are glorified NW1/2X-type races). But at least the horses are generally staying home now. Should there be a greater purse difference between the allowance/overnight stakes and the "featured" stakes races? Probably.

Two other thoughts: I am not a fan of the extra races that NYRA is carding, especially with the 6 day race week. (I almost feel like I'm at Calder or Gulfstream.) Aside from taxing the horse population (and leading to lesser quality fields being needed), I think it taxes the fans as well. There's something about being able to leave the track at a reasonable hour. Combined with an average of 33 minutes between races (about 1-2 minutes per race additional this year), it's tough. Approximate post for Thursday's 10th race is 6:04 PM. That's not good. In the past, that race, even on a weekend, would go off around 5:45 PM.

Finally, I'm also perplexed by the positioning of the stakes races on the cards. I understand that, when there is a short field in the given race, they may want to move it to get it out of the late pic-4 or pic-6. However, the positioning of the stakes races this past Sunday was downright baffling. The Yaddo was the fourth race of the day, while the West Point (an excellent betting race with a full field) was the seventh race on an 11 race card. Meanwhile, the next sequence of races consisted of a $35K NW2L claimer for fillies at 5.5F, an NY-bred NW2X and an open NW1X allowance.

[Quiet Chris]

The difficulty of the races that fill at Saratoga are not worth the extra few thousand. Trainers realize they are much better off going to Delaware of Monmouth.

Training racehorses has become a game of percentages. You don't get good win and in the money percentages running in tough fields. You go where the softer fields are.

Saratoga is slowly becoming stakes races with some NY bred races as filler.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

What's wrong is that MUCHO time of handicappers (particularly those focusing almost exclusively on turf) has been wasted with all the OFF the TURF races. This would be excusable IF there were only ONE turf course. As there are TWO turf courses, NYRA needs to shelve the old way of doing things and sacrifice one of those courses for wet days. It's not like they'll need BOTH turf courses for the entire year. Same applies to BEL.

And, the distance incentive has been a BUST, IMO. Do we really need $70k maiden route races? How about we use that EXTRA cash in writing some BETTER races for BETTER horses. Seems to me, the quality of horses is down this year as there are other options for them (at comparable purses).

While the quality of the fields doesn't really affect my handicapping, as I know the turf horses well and I've pretty much accepted that there just won't be as many quality turf races in NY anymore, I do, every so often, want to see a nice competitive turf race. If I wanted CLAIMERS, I'd focus on DEL, CNL, Maryland, and (in a lesser sense) AP and MTH.

I realize that SAR offers a nice ON TRACK experience. For the OFF track player, however, it's very much an ordinary (even subpar) one.

You're out of your mind. Sacrifice one of the turf courses?? Even if they did, how is handicapping running in a bog any fun? Do you realize how much rain there has been up there over the past three weeks?

The distance incentive has NOT been a bust, IMO. How many would have been in the Unbridled's Heart race a couple Saturdays ago if the purse incentive was not there? It would have been a 5-6 horse field with a heavy favorite, not exactly a fun gambling experience.

There's a couple things I've had an issue with. (1) Writing races that cannabalize their own feature events (i.e., the race before the Jim Dandy and the 3YO filly sprint stake on Test day.) (2) Going to the California-style layout of the races, putting the shorter fields in the beginning of the day, in an attempt to induce pick-6 carryovers (which given the moderate size of the pick 6 pools relative to CA, isn't worth it).

As for the quality horses thing... they're just not out there. Find me a horse that is running at another meet that would normally be running in NY.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by philcski

You're out of your mind. Sacrifice one of the turf courses?? Even if they did, how is handicapping running in a bog any fun? Do you realize how much rain there has been up there over the past three weeks?

The distance incentive has NOT been a bust, IMO. How many would have been in the Unbridled's Heart race a couple Saturdays ago if the purse incentive was not there? It would have been a 5-6 horse field with a heavy favorite, not exactly a fun gambling experience.

There's a couple things I've had an issue with. (1) Writing races that cannabalize their own feature events (i.e., the race before the Jim Dandy and the 3YO filly sprint stake on Test day.) (2) Going to the California-style layout of the races, putting the shorter fields in the beginning of the day, in an attempt to induce pick-6 carryovers (which given the moderate size of the pick 6 pools relative to CA, isn't worth it).

As for the quality horses thing... they're just not out there. Find me a horse that is running at another meet that would normally be running in NY.

Even if they hadn't carded that filly stake, with the way horses are managed now, it's doubtful many of them would have wanted to face Indian Blessing.

[blackthroatedwind]

Just to clarify some confusion....


Not one horse in the Allowance before the Jim Dandy was going to run in the Jim Dandy ( which PJ knew ) and as a consequence we now have two new starters, and contenders, for the Travers.


If this was a mistake on his part he should continue screwing things up.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not one horse in the Allowance before the Jim Dandy was going to run in the Jim Dandy ( which PJ knew ) and as a consequence we now have two new starters, and contenders, for the Travers.

Just to be correct, it was a "stakes" race that was contested directly before the Jim Dandy.

Also, while it looks like it may have worked out well so far as creating two possible Travers starters, I think it's probably a stretch to say that PJ "knew" that no one from that stakes race would have contested the Jim Dandy when the condition book came out the first week of July. Tizbig, for example, had just finished second in the Dwyer, and Pascal was a "wiseguy" selection in the Saratoga race off an interesting running line in the Dwyer as well.

[Linny]

Andy
If that's the case, good for PJ. I do think that some of the additions have hurt the stakes program.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Just to be correct, it was a "stakes" race that was contested directly before the Jim Dandy.

Also, while it looks like it may have worked out well so far as creating two possible Travers starters, I think it's probably a stretch to say that PJ "knew" that no one from that stakes race would have contested the Jim Dandy when the condition book came out the first week of July. Tizbig, for example, had just finished second in the Dwyer, and Pascal was a "wiseguy" selection in the Saratoga race off an interesting running line in the Dwyer as well.

Herein lies the difference.....you think....while I know.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

Andy
If that's the case, good for PJ. I do think that some of the additions have hurt the stakes program.

I'm not necessarily arguing with this. I just wanted to be clear on the race before the Jim Dandy.

[SniperSB23]

The Dandy worked out but the carding of the 3yo filly sprint on the same day as the Test was a big mistake. The Test has drawn fields in the past even with heavy favorites simply cause it is the last G1 of the racing season for 3yo fillies so people will take the shot. The last four years it drew 12, 13, 9, and 12 horse fields. This year it was a joke.

[Gander]

Anyone know if Fairbanks will try the Woodward?

Originally Posted by Gander

Anyone know if Fairbanks will try the Woodward?

Why would he?

[Gander]

Because its a huge purse, he loves Saratoga and who besides Curlin would he have to face? 2nd place pays out a lot of money.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Just to clarify some confusion....


Not one horse in the Allowance before the Jim Dandy was going to run in the Jim Dandy ( which PJ knew ) and as a consequence we now have two new starters, and contenders, for the Travers.


If this was a mistake on his part he should continue screwing things up.

Well therein lies a major problem, the condition book came out 2-3 weeks before this race went off. 7 horses ran in the Henry Walton, all of whose trainers told him they would not run in the Jim Dandy under ANY circumstances? So he went ahead and wrote a "stakes" race for 3YO's at the same distance on the same day?

There is a lot of competition for horseflesh to fill good races, we all agree with that. A 3YO wanting to go in an age restricted stakes race at a mile and an eighth could choose the Jim Dandy for $500k, the WV Derby for $750k, and the Haskell for $1,000,000 all within that week, not to mention, for those that were still N1X eligible an $80k allowance against 3YO's. Why would anyone in their right mind write a condition that gives the trainers an out? You don't want to go in the Dandy? Fine, run against older in an N2X or ship out to Chester, WV. Save the barn space for someone who actually wants to run.

Oh wait, I forgot- Pyro is such a monster they were all avoiding him

[blackthroatedwind]

Just be thankful that it is raining out again and the drought is staved off for another day.

[philcski]

By the way, half of the fillies that should have been running in Friday's Lake George went in Saturday's Madame Jumel Stakes...

[the_fat_man]

Here's the evidence:

next 2 days on the turf

8 races total (not including the jumper)

3 sprints (5.5F): 2 clmg ($35k), mdn clmg ($45-40k),

5 routes:

4 MSW and 1 clmg ($35k)


NOW, that's QUALITY!!! what an embarrassment.


As for the sacrificing of one of the turf courses, why can't it be done?
Use extended rails on one of the courses and run on it when you'd typically take the races off. You'd have a course you'd beat up but that you could use for the rain days and you'd have a pristine course for the 'BIG' races (as few as these might be these days). The only reason this hasn't been done before is that, to the best of my knowledge, SAR and BEL are the only tracks with 2 turf courses. Put them to use. Stop wasting my time. WTF are we saving the courses for, winter polo?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Herein lies the difference.....you think....while I know.

You highlighted the wrong part of my post on which I was focusing ("...when the condition book came out"). The Saratoga condition book came out on July 4. The Dwyer Stakes was not contested until July 6. To say that PJ "knew" before the Dwyer was contested that the Henry Walton would not draw a horse from the Jim Dandy makes absolutely no sense. To "know" that a few weeks later is believable.

Originally Posted by Gander

Because its a huge purse, he loves Saratoga and who besides Curlin would he have to face? 2nd place pays out a lot of money.

He has a tendency to fold like a cheap tent when he gets passed.

If I were his trainer I would run him at Monmouth.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Gander

Because its a huge purse, he loves Saratoga and who besides Curlin would he have to face? 2nd place pays out a lot of money.

Divine Park is a decent horse.