Bailout bill fails

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GPK

In your opinion, does the federal government belong in the market place though?

i know you asked wiphan...but i would say imo, no. problem is, there aren't enough sound institutions left to buy the unsound. the feds feel that left alone, this problem will only snowball, costing us more in the long run then a taxpayer funded bailout would cost us now.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Three things ought to happen.

* The Securites and Exchange Commision ought to be abolished.

* The Federal Reserve ought to be abolished.

* A massive amount of public lynchings need to go forward. A lot of these crooks in Washington and Wall Street simply ought to be hung - and it would be a lot of fun to watch.

Money doesn't belong on paper - it belongs in pockets. Enough with the government involvement that allows fictional money to exist only on paper.

However, the most important thing is that public lynchings return.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by wiphan

The companies that made the bad loans have already been hurt and they are paying dearly for the fiscal irresponsibility that lead most of them into the situation. The problem is that there are no investors for very good, creditable consumers/businesses due to the issues and problems in the market place. Without the government stepping in and buying a lot of these investments, good honest businesses and consumers will not be able to obtain the financing that they normally could get. The government could actually profit by buying up these securities and some estimates are anywhere from $1-3 trillion yes trillion dollars in profit, by buying and holding these investments; however this depends on what price they buy them at. There is a liquidity crisis in the market that is affecting all financial institutions no matter if they ethically or unethically offered financing. The bailout is not all about letting bad businesses out of their fiscal irresponsible decisions.

And that is the 3 trillion dollar question: How in God's name are they going to price these assets?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by wiphan

The companies that made the bad loans have already been hurt and they are paying dearly for the fiscal irresponsibility that lead most of them into the situation. The problem is that there are no investors for very good, creditable consumers/businesses due to the issues and problems in the market place. Without the government stepping in and buying a lot of these investments, good honest businesses and consumers will not be able to obtain the financing that they normally could get. The government could actually profit by buying up these securities and some estimates are anywhere from $1-3 trillion yes trillion dollars in profit, by buying and holding these investments; however this depends on what price they buy them at. There is a liquidity crisis in the market that is affecting all financial institutions no matter if they ethically or unethically offered financing. The bailout is not all about letting bad businesses out of their fiscal irresponsible decisions.

Fundamentally "toxic mortages" are toast and some feel why do taxpayers have to bail out a credit mess they had nothing to do with to begin with. These things should have been foreseen by the Fed long before it got to this point, I agree with alot of what you said but fundamentally I disagree with a Bailout.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

And let me really offend some people now.

The Greatest Generation and their children are to blame. They let this s.hit happen because they feel entitled to do whatever they please. Future generations be damned.

This would actually be a great seperate topic. I lay the blame to the children of the greatest generation (yes, the boomers).

Why do you feel this way?

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by wiphan

The companies that made the bad loans have already been hurt and they are paying dearly for the fiscal irresponsibility that lead most of them into the situation. The problem is that there are no investors for very good, creditable consumers/businesses due to the issues and problems in the market place. Without the government stepping in and buying a lot of these investments, good honest businesses and consumers will not be able to obtain the financing that they normally could get. The government could actually profit by buying up these securities and some estimates are anywhere from $1-3 trillion yes trillion dollars in profit, by buying and holding these investments; however this depends on what price they buy them at. There is a liquidity crisis in the market that is affecting all financial institutions no matter if they ethically or unethically offered financing. The bailout is not all about letting bad businesses out of their fiscal irresponsible decisions.

Okay I am going to put this out there hoping that it helps communicate the dire circumstances we are currently entering and what it means for the future for everybody.

I grew up the definition of middle class having a roof over my head, that my father rented literally week to week, never had to worry about whether I had clothes or food as my father did what he had to do to raise 3 sons and a daughter but there were no excesses of any kind.

I was fortunate enough to go to a state univ for a very afforable education, did decently academically and subsequently during the Regan years borrowed 250K, most of it with 18% HEAL money to finanace my medical education which I have subsequently paid back over 15 years.

With a credit rating in the mid to upper 600's I recently sold my home and applied for a mortgage offering 30% down payment on a home half the size of the place I sold. We had our application frozen or "denied at this time" due to the current circumstances. Now my job has changed substantially in the last 6 months and I have educational loans for my sons and about 10% of what I made last year in other debts but if I can't get an immediate loan at the best rates then what's going to happen to the people who are not as fortunate as I am when they want to but a home or finance a car while they have decent jobs and credit scores........this bill was not the answer but if you don't believe that we are about to enter one of the darkess financial times of our lifetime ask your friends who are trying to buy anything of substance how it is going for them.

[Mortimer]

Steven H. Crist.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by wiphan

The bailout is not all about letting bad businesses out of their fiscal irresponsible decisions.

Why are we giving these same crooks money to loan again? These CEO's with 50 and 100 million bucks made off bad loans(Paulson' s friends) need to be punished. I don't see a thing about doing that. The people crying loudest are doing it because their stocks are going down. Don't gamble on stocks anymore, or don't do it without being willing to take losses for gambling with your money. Your retirement in the stock market? Well, you fkd up. Don't look for innocent people to bail you out. You fkd up. You say you hate Socialism, but you are all putting your hand out for it. Meanwhile, your against the common person getting healthcare. YOU WANT SOCIALISM, BUT ONLY SOMETIME. FCK OFF.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Steven H. Crist.

Okay Morty I know I'll regret this but as I have said repeatedly you are the smartest guy who types here by far....what did Steven H. Crist mean?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

These CEO's with 50 and 100 million bucks made off bad loans(Paulson' s friends) need to be punished.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Okay Morty I know I'll regret this but as I have said repeatedly you are the smartest guy who types here by far....what did Steven H. Crist mean?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by wiphan

The companies that made the bad loans have already been hurt and they are paying dearly for the fiscal irresponsibility that lead most of them into the situation.

Hurt so bad that Lehman bros. gave out 2.5 billion to employee's parachutes? Spare me this bullsh-it about how they were hurt. Damn crooks. They hurt others. They hurt guys like Doc that need a loan. They want the Gov't to put up the money to loan him. Money they would have if they had written safer loans, and not artificially driven up housing prices(to make more n' more interest.) I can't support giving people in this industry any adult level responsibilities. They are selfish greedy lying children. I don't trust them to do anything but repeat the same theft again. They artificially increased housing prices to make more and more profit off the interest from loans, and charges to refinance etc. Can someone tell me why they want to trust the same people with new money? Many should be in jail(not getting off the hook for their mess.) Paulson was making 40 million a year at Goldman Sachs. We know his efforts will favor the scum that caused this.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Steven H. Crist.

Uh well....it's an expression of shock. I won't use the name most do as I recall my Catholic upbringing and what would happen to me should I use that name.


I'm just sick of all the expert opinion...that's all.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Hurt so bad that Lehman bros. gave out 2.5 billion to employee's parachutes? Spare me this bullsh-it about how they were hurt. Damn crooks. They hurt others. They hurt guys like Doc that need a loan. They want the Gov't to put up the money to loan him. Money they would have if they had written safer loans, and not artificially driven up housing prices(to make more n' more interest.) I can't support giving people in this industry any adult level responsibilities. They are selfish greedy lying children. I don't trust them to do anything but repeat the same theft again. They artificially increased housing prices to make more and more profit off the interest from loans, and charges to refinance etc. Can someone tell me why they want to trust the same people with new money? Many should be in jail(not getting off the hook for their mess.) Paulson was making 40 million a year at Goldman Sachs. We know his efforts will favor the scum that caused this.

but isn't the fbi investigating many of these firms now? i'm thinking enron-type prosecution for those responsible...or at least, one can hope.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't pay a car note, own a house with a mortgage? i have very little debt myself, but i have some all the same. you can make debt work for you-i mean, who can save the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to buy a house so as to avoid a mortgage?
and go tell all the autoworkers they're all out of work, as no one can borrow. yeah, that'll make their day.
and everyone who has a 401k is in the stock market to some degree.

I keep fixing up my '87 Honda Civic(actually it's a very popular model,) and 2000 Ford Focus. Most new cars are overpriced, and most people can't afford them. So, they get loans. If they didn't get loans, then car prices would be lower. Cars would have to be sold for what people can afford(rather than what they can get somebody to give them a loan for.) Houses would never have been as expensive if prices hadn't been pushed up artificially by mortgage companies wanting to make more n' more interest n' fees off loans they shouldn't have offered. Now, it's a bad thing that people have to live within their means? I don't think so. Fewer loans will result in lower prices, and you wouldn't have to always pay a bunch of money to loan companies. If only reasonable loans were made, then houses would be more affordable. We have to get off the easy credit baby bottle. That's what this really is all about, and people don't want to give that baby bottle up easily. We must do that. I'm not talking about stuff like student loans. I mean car loans, house loans, and high interest credit cards.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

but isn't the fbi investigating many of these firms now? i'm thinking enron-type prosecution for those responsible...or at least, one can hope.

Enron was about the executives cashing in their company stock at such a rate that the employee's stock was about worthless. This Savings and Loan stuff isn't about ripping off their employees. It's about knowingly making bad loans, and it was widespread. Anytime something is widespread, the punishment isn't as interesting to authorities. I doubt they punish these people for their greed. Matter of fact, they can't wait to pass this bill, and pay them for their bad loans.

I just want money to be able to flow.
I do not want to see children and older folks hurt by this.
Some of the older folks live on fixed incomes that rely
on a mixture of stocks and bonds being sold. I dont want
them to suffer.

I do not want to see poorer folks with kids to raise lose jobs
because the economy grinds to a halt. Its already tough enough. Jobs
are going away every month now. This will not help.

We got to free up money. If every one just wraps their arms around
what little they may have, and hunker down... Time for Coop vegetable
gardens and chickens in the back yard. Worked in college. People well off
will not starve.

I have to believe some sort of bill comes through so that
money does not to stagnate and rot.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Enron was about the executives cashing in their company stock at such a rate that the employee's stock was about worthless. This Savings and Loan stuff isn't about ripping off their employees. It's about knowingly making bad loans, and it was widespread. Anytime something is widespread, the punishment isn't as interesting to authorities. I doubt they punish these people for their greed. Matter of fact, they can't wait to pass this bill, and pay them for their bad loans.

Do you realize that there are plenty of GOOD loans that are stopping up the system right now?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Do you realize that there are plenty of GOOD loans that are stopping up the system right now?

I'm so tired of this bulls-h-i-t . Fact=somebody made a loan that somebody quit on. Sell whatever asset they over-valued, and stop begging others to buy the loan on this asset(that you say may eventually go up to the value the loan was made for.) You say we don't understand. I understand your industry was greedy, and deserved to get their butt kicked, and now they want to gather up their riches, and run off (if only the Gov't will help them get rid of the mistakes they made.) I don't want to do that. FCK Wallstreet. We need money injected for well made loans etc.? Fine, but don't have the same crooks give out the loans. That is stupid. People want loans with taxpayer money? Have the Government make loans to citizens, and companies, but people in your industry have gotten away with this crap too long to just keep using them to give the money out that way. They want Government money? Watch every fkn penny of it. Every penny should be regulated, and the loans given won't be to make interest. They will be made to "free up the credit supply." We have a credit crisis? Fine give out loans, but don't have the same people involved. Banish them from being involved with distributing this money.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I'm so tired of this bulls-h-i-t . Fact=somebody made a loan that somebody quit on. Sell whatever asset they over-valued, and stop begging others to buy the loan on this asset(that you say may eventually go up to the value the loan was made for.) You say we don't understand. I understand your industry was greedy, and deserved to get their butt kicked, and now they want to gather up their riches, and run off (if only the Gov't will help them get rid of the mistakes they made.) I don't want to do that. FCK Wallstreet. We need money injected for well made loans etc.? Fine, but don't have the same crooks give out the loans. That is stupid. People want loans with taxpayer money? Have the Government make loans to citizens, and companies, but people in your industry have gotten away with this crap too long to just keep using them to give the money out that way. They want Government money? Watch every fkn penny of it. Every penny should be regulated, and the loans given won't be to make interest. They will be made to "free up the credit supply." We have a credit crisis? Fine give out loans, but don't have the same people involved. Banish them from being involved with distributing this money.

Who do you think gave out the loans that are going bad?