Israel suspending air bombing

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree that it's terrible and sickening when you read about all the people getting killed in Lebanon. But what can you do? You have these terrorists firing hundreds of rockets into Israel killing and injuring a lot of civilians. The Lebanese government is doing nothing to stop these terrorists from firing rockets into Israel. These terrorists fire the rockets from residential neighborhoods and hide in people's houses. I don't know what the answer is. Should Israel just sit there idly and keep getting hit by these rockets?

The thing that is so sick about this whole thing is that Hezbollah likes it when Lebanese women and children get killed. It's makes great propaganda for them. It makes Israel look like the bad guy. I think the blood is on Hezbollah's hands. They know that Lebanese civilians will get killed if they fire rockets into Israel from civilian neighborhoods.

Hezbollah is awful, but the blood is on the hands of the people that do the killing. Israel needs to go in and root them out, even if it means heavy casualties. All they are doing by bombing them is make people in Lebanon hate Israel and side with the terrorists.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Hezbollah is awful, but the blood is on the hands of the people that do the killing. Israel needs to go in and root them out, even if it means heavy casualties. All they are doing by bombing them is make people in Lebanon hate Israel and side with the terrorists.

They have been in there rooting them out. They have been doing both things. They have been fighting on the ground and they have been bombing from the air. They actually lost quite a few troops in the ground war.

You are right that the bombing will make people in Lebanon hate Israel. Its really a lose/lose situation for Israel. Even when Israel is in there with troops on the ground fighting, there will still be plenty of civilians killed because the terrorist are hiding amongst civilians and firing on them from these positions.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They have been in there rooting them out. They have been doing both things. They have been fighting on the ground and they have been bombing from the air. They actually lost quite a few troops in the ground war.

You are right that the bombing will make people in Lebanon hate Israel. Its really a lose/lose situation for Israel. Even when Israel is in there with troops on the ground fighting, there will still be plenty of civilians killed because the terrorist are hiding amongst civilians and firing on them from these positions.

Well what is the point then in all of this. Either start a war with Iran or stop wasting your time. What Israel is doing is nothing more than a temporary solution. All they have done is help grow a new generation of terrorists. I hate the US involvement in Iraq but atleast we are trying to set up a government (which isn't going to work) and are seen by many as trying to help. I have no idea what the point is in what Israel is doing.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They have been in there rooting them out. They have been doing both things. They have been fighting on the ground and they have been bombing from the air. They actually lost quite a few troops in the ground war.

You are right that the bombing will make people in Lebanon hate Israel. Its really a lose/lose situation for Israel. Even when Israel is in there with troops on the ground fighting, there will still be plenty of civilians killed because the terrorist are hiding amongst civilians and firing on them from these positions.

Flash!!! The Lebanese already have a dislike for the Israelis. What Israel is doing isn't new.... They've been trashing Lebanon for 25 years.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree that it's terrible and sickening when you read about all the people getting killed in Lebanon. But what can you do? You have these terrorists firing hundreds of rockets into Israel killing and injuring a lot of civilians. The Lebanese government is doing nothing to stop these terrorists from firing rockets into Israel. These terrorists fire the rockets from residential neighborhoods and hide in people's houses. I don't know what the answer is. Should Israel just sit there idly and keep getting hit by these rockets?

The thing that is so sick about this whole thing is that Hezbollah likes it when Lebanese women and children get killed. It's makes great propaganda for them. It makes Israel look like the bad guy. I think the blood is on Hezbollah's hands. They know that Lebanese civilians will get killed if they fire rockets into Israel from civilian neighborhoods.

It's pretty obvious that the Lebanese government is powerless...once supported by GW Bush. Condi to the rescue???
I don't think so.
Israel is doing what they're doing with US supplied weapons. This further diminishes US credibility in the Arab (Muslim) world.
So, what to do?
Well, the UN is ineffective, and their observers have been killed by Israel.
The pay back for them will be huge, indeed. They really do look like the "bad guys" to many.
Do you think that they over reacted to the taking of two soldiers and used this as an excuse to destroy the infrastructure of a struggling democracy?
Don't get me wrong, lots of blood is on both parties' hands.
So, my question....how would YOU stop this insanity when the 48 hours are up?
Sad to say, many more will die.
Hezzbolah isn't going to run out of rockets anytime soon, and Israel isn't going to run out of tanks or F-16's and drones with serious fire.
Israel has gone very far to create enemies, as has the current US policies.
When will it end?
I really don't know.
Is it when they've killed enough of each other's children, one with bombs and the other with suicide bombers on buses?
Seems that there's just too much innocent blood for me to consider before it's resolved.
I really would like to hear your thoughts.
I've just said mine...and I don't see much good.

Praying for sanity and peace,
DTS

[Danzig]

we support israel because it's a democracy surrounded by countries that are anything but. it's falls in line completely with our support of other democracies. plus america always tends to support the underdog. probably because we haven't forgotten we were once the underdog not so long ago--we're a bunch of mutts really...
also, the jewish people are without a doubt the most vilified, hated, victimized people this world has EVER seen. every plague, war, famine, etc that struck euro countries over the centuries--when the going got tough, guess who was turned into the scapegoat? banished from countries, children taken to be raised the 'right way' in christian households, while parents were killed. and this has been for two thousand-odd years. this isn't something new that hitler started.


losing a crusade? go home and kill the jews in your cities.
losing the hundred years war? can't beat france/england/spain/portugal? hanseatic league giving you fits? prussia? see above...

the israelis should be left alone to live in peace, rather than constantly dealing with all their neighbors wanting nothing more than their complete annihilation.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

we support israel because it's a democracy surrounded by countries that are anything but. it's falls in line completely with our support of other democracies. plus america always tends to support the underdog. probably because we haven't forgotten we were once the underdog not so long ago--we're a bunch of mutts really...
also, the jewish people are without a doubt the most vilified, hated, victimized people this world has EVER seen. every plague, war, famine, etc that struck euro countries over the centuries--when the going got tough, guess who was turned into the scapegoat? banished from countries, children taken to be raised the 'right way' in christian households, while parents were killed. and this has been for two thousand-odd years. this isn't something new that hitler started.


losing a crusade? go home and kill the jews in your cities.
losing the hundred years war? can't beat france/england/spain/portugal? hanseatic league giving you fits? prussia? see above...

the israelis should be left alone to live in peace, rather than constantly dealing with all their neighbors wanting nothing more than their complete annihilation.

Danzig,
I certainly agree with you. Not to mention the Inquisition in Spain, and so many other atrocities that have been committed against Jewish (Hebrew) people.
Unfortunately, now they are seen to be the "aggressors". It is seen by many that they are doing to others as has been done to them.
I don't think they'll turn the other cheek, or learn to "love" their enemies.
They've heard it before and rejected that advice.
In fact, the messanger of those words of wisdom was killed in a horrible manner.
So, back to my question...
"What would YOU do to end this insanity?"

[Danzig]

move?

no, seriously...

first of all, we can't base our foreign policy on whether we will be liked by others for our decisions. we have to do what's right. not necessarily what is expedient or popular. in a nutshell, as long as we support israel we will be hated by arabs. it's that simple. if we are the only think separating israel from annihilation, then we stay the course.

i heard mention of a dmz, that's a start. also, we say we don't want to 'nation build' but a bit of that would go a long way in lebanon--they must have a legitimate govt in order to take any kind of control.

the un being what it is, i'd be more comfortable if nato stepped in instead.

israel has been thru, what, five wars in it's short life? that's crazy. they gave so much a few years ago, but arafat backed out--he and many others don't want a deal. they don't want palestine, they want israel GONE. how do you deal with that? there's no common ground to be reached.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

move?

no, seriously...

first of all, we can't base our foreign policy on whether we will be liked by others for our decisions. we have to do what's right. not necessarily what is expedient or popular. in a nutshell, as long as we support israel we will be hated by arabs. it's that simple. if we are the only think separating israel from annihilation, then we stay the course.

i heard mention of a dmz, that's a start. also, we say we don't want to 'nation build' but a bit of that would go a long way in lebanon--they must have a legitimate govt in order to take any kind of control.

the un being what it is, i'd be more comfortable if nato stepped in instead.

israel has been thru, what, five wars in it's short life? that's crazy. they gave so much a few years ago, but arafat backed out--he and many others don't want a deal. they don't want palestine, they want israel GONE. how do you deal with that? there's no common ground to be reached.

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

This whole "spreading democracy" or "preserving democracy" thing is one of the biggest shams ever. Do people really believe the US govt cares what system a country uses as long as our ships are sailing in the same direction?

Originally Posted by boldruler

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

A democracy and the rule of law, in the middle of tyrannical Oil governments and impoverished killing machines. How many times does this need to be repeated. That is what we get. You dont like that. Tough luck. I dont like my money going certain places either. Vote for a president and Congress that supports tyranny abroad. Good luck finding candidates... check that, Pat Buchanan is your man.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

A democracy and the rule of law, in the middle of tyrannical Oil governments and impoverished killing machines. How many times does this need to be repeated. That is what we get. You dont like that. Tough luck. I dont like my money going certain places either. Vote for a president and Congress that supports tyranny abroad. Good luck finding candidates... check that, Pat Buchanan is your man.

Such as Eisenhower, kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, et al?

Originally Posted by dalakhani

why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

This whole "spreading democracy" or "preserving democracy" thing is one of the biggest shams ever. Do people really believe the US govt cares what system a country uses as long as our ships are sailing in the same direction?

Yes we care on the whole. We would like people all over the world to be able to worship as they please, enjoy a successful life based merit, and vote for their own leaders... and much more. We dont like Saudi Arabia's govt. but we put up with it because their is nothing to replace it at the moment. Democracy might not work as a system in some countries, but the right of human freedom and dignity has a Judeo-Christian foundation that makes total sense to most of the world. It has spread because it is morally sound.

You can be a cynical as you want, but overall this is what we strive for although we have made many mistakes and dont follow our own ideals sometimes. We are hardly perfect. But the basics are clear.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Such as Eisenhower, kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, et al?

We have propped up highly tyrannical governments in the past. Made some horrible mistakes as long as countries gave us what we needed or just plain would bend to our will. We have learned the hard way that does not work.

Everyone of those president you just mentioned played an important role in constantly badgering the largest country in the world to clean up their act. Constantly, with no gain whatsoever on our part other than getting individuals released because of religious or political persecution. IN fact it is to our detriment to keep badgering China. But we do it anyway.

Name a country with more people than China that we have done the opposite.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Yes we care on the whole. We would like people all over the world to be able to worship as they please, enjoy a successful life based merit, and vote for their own leaders... and much more. We dont like Saudi Arabia's govt. but we put up with it because their is nothing to replace it at the moment. Democracy might not work as a system in some countries, but the right of human freedom and dignity has a Judeo-Christian foundation that makes total sense to most of the world. It has spread because it is morally sound.

You can be a cynical as you want, but overall this is what we strive for although we have made many mistakes and dont follow our own ideals sometimes. We are hardly perfect. But the basics are clear.

If this is true then why are there so many examples of leadership that the US has not only supported but also implemented that stray so far from your stated "ideals"?

You can be as idealistic if you like (or rather naive) but the proof is more on my side than on yours.

America over the last 60 years has looked out more times than not for her own interests first. Whether it be politically or financially dont be mistaken that our interests have come first and more times than not financial interests, whether individual or national, have driven American policy.

I find nothing at all wrong with America looking out for herself first. The problem i have is with the politicians spinning it into this "we are the world" thing and the mindless sheep that actually believe this bull****.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have propped up highly tyrannical governments in the past. Made some horrible mistakes as long as countries gave us what we needed or just plain would bend to our will. We have learned the hard way that does not work.

Everyone of those president you just mentioned played an important role in constantly badgering the largest country in the world to clean up their act. Constantly, with no gain whatsoever on our part other than getting individuals released because of religious or political persecution. IN fact it is to our detriment to keep badgering China. But we do it anyway.

Name a country with more people than China that we have done the opposite.

Sorry pal. You seem like an intelligent guy but this is a pretty dumb question. Think about it.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Sorry pal. You seem like an intelligent guy but this is a pretty dumb question. Think about it.

Actually I really dont need to. You got the point.

We are asking the most populated country in the world to clean up their act to our detriment. A country that constantly thwarts us in the UN and in many other ways, just to get a few political and religious prisoners released. I mean come on guy, what the hell good does it do us to say lay off the people of Nepal?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Actually I really dont need to. You got the point.

We are asking the most populated country in the world to clean up their act to our detriment. A country that constantly thwarts us in the UN and in many other ways, just to get a few political and religious prisoners released. I mean come on guy, what the hell good does it do us to say lay off the people of Nepal?

and what good would it do us to keep our mouths shut? LOL

We have spent far more money in Africa than any other country in the World. We dumped some Marines in the middle of Somalia just to break up a horrific tribal war, and got them killed. We have done a hell of a lot of altruistic things. I am not naive enough to think everything is done this way. But I damn sure am not as totally cynical as you.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia, and why do we keep bugging China while losing huge bucks in trade with them because of it?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have spent far more money in Africa than any other country in the World. We dumped some Marines in the middle of Somalia just to break up a horrific tribal war, and got them killed. We have done a hell of a lot of altruistic things. I am not naive enough to think everything is done this way. But I damn sure am not as totally cynical as you.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia, and why do we keep bugging China while losing huge bucks in trade with them because of it?

And why did we then abandon the somalians? nothing to gain maybe?

And why did we support Idi Amin or Mobutu or the countless others?

And why havent we been tougher with China on trade if we have such a problem with their human rights practices? Why were we much more lenient in our attitude toward China back when their human rights policies were measurably worse? Could it be because we needed them against the big, bad USSR?????