Just for a change of pace

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Serious Intelligence Official as in Leon Panetta?

[Cannon Shell]

There are lots of debates where we have some level of experience or can research the facts in tons of verifiable sources. Abortion, religion, the economy, govt spending, taxes, gun control, etc. Torture in regards to foreign combatants, hostages, terrorists, POW's, etc. is not one of those things. Therefore any discussion is completely opinion based which is fine but kind of superficial.

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Serious Intelligence Official as in Leon Panetta?

Panetta actually sided with the old CIA guys
on most of this stuff that has just come to light.
He apparently was of the opinion that the articles
detailing a bunch of stuff about "intelligence" gathering
was not at all helpful and not necessary.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There are lots of debates where we have some level of experience or can research the facts in tons of verifiable sources. Abortion, religion, the economy, govt spending, taxes, gun control, etc. Torture in regards to foreign combatants, hostages, terrorists, POW's, etc. is not one of those things. Therefore any discussion is completely opinion based which is fine but kind of superficial.

If the ex-head of the CIA says waterboarding did work
in giving us some very valuable information, confirmed
by CIA guys from Bush and Clinton years...

But you are right. With all the brain research going on now
and different ways of altering neurons, you just know there
is some stuff going on we cannot fathom.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Panetta actually sided with the old CIA guys
on most of this stuff that has just come to light.
He apparently was of the opinion that the articles
detailing a bunch of stuff about "intelligence" gathering
was not at all helpful and not necessary.

I think the only time he took that position was when he was doing his best to cover up Slick Will's BJ. Actually here's his point of view in his own words though it sounds like it could have been written by Brian,

We have preached these values to the world. We have made clear that there are certain lines Americans will not cross because we respect the dignity of every human being. That pledge was written into the oath of office given to every president, "to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." It's what is supposed to make our leaders different from every tyrant, dictator, or despot. We are sworn to govern by the rule of law, not by brute force.

We cannot simply suspend these beliefs in the name of national security. Those who support torture may believe that we can abuse captives in certain select circumstances and still be true to our values. But that is a false compromise. We either believe in the dignity of the individual, the rule of law, and the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, or we don't. There is no middle ground.

We cannot and we must not use torture under any circumstances. We are better than that.


http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/...on_torture.php

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I don't think that any of us has a real clue as to what the CIA does or needs to do in order to keep us safe from the threats that have existed and continue to exist for decades. Who here is really qualified to understand any of these things in a meaningful context? Maybe it is distasteful but I have a hard time believing that the intelligence agencies of virtually every country in the world use tactics that dont work. Obviously we would all prefer terrorists to roll over without resorting to torture but I would guess that this is not the case in a great deal of cases but how would I really know? Some things are just better off unknown...

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

In-law torture is the worst kind of mental abuse...

no joke!!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

That is a ridiculous argument. We dont need to know because we cant possibly understand it. How exactly did we hold the German and Japanese people responsible for their leaders actions? Rebuild their countries and give them lots of money? Please punish me....

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

I did not take the quote the same way.
But we do need to take responsibilty.

I was thinking more along the lines of the CIA
is probably fiddling with brain chemistry in such a way
as to not cause irrepairable mental damage and still
get info. with stuff we would not udnerstand

[Cannon Shell]

While this is not directly about torture it is interesting that in dealing with real world issues that Obama walks along the same lines as the previous administration. This is one campaign promise I hope stays broken.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027091370936935.html

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I did not take the quote the same way.
But we do need to take responsibilty.

I was thinking more along the lines of the CIA
is probably fiddling with brain chemistry in such a way
as to not cause irrepairable mental damage and still
get info. with stuff we would not udnerstand

I'm pretty sure it started in your classes!

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

waterboarding and other assorted measures are 100 percent usefull and should be ok....gimme a break people..you dont know what intel is/was taken from these people in abue grade/or guantanamo.its part of the 'game'. you get caught.you have a choice..help or we will help you.why should we care about these combatants..as if they whould not as a whole strap a bomb to themselves and walk into wallmart and boom..just as they continue to do to our troops in iraq.this bleeding hart stuff for combat troops ie al q. is laughable..feed the homeless..start there first.......

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

waterboarding and other assorted measures are 100 percent usefull and should be ok....gimme a break people..you dont know what intel is/was taken from these people in abue grade/or guantanamo.its part of the 'game'. you get caught.you have a choice..help or we will help you.why should we care about these combatants..as if they whould not as a whole strap a bomb to themselves and walk into wallmart and boom..just as they continue to do to our troops in iraq.this bleeding hart stuff for combat troops ie al q. is laughable..feed the homeless..start there first.......

What if the person being tortured is not a terrorist and knows nothing?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

What if the person being tortured is not a terrorist and knows nothing?

hes just phucked..wrong place at the wrong time..many in our own jails suffer the same fate..

[Cannon Shell]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123972817445317541.html

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i have a friend that was at abue grade..he is a doctor he was assisting a dentist who was giving dental care extractions ect.. the prisoners where skared shittless of the dentist.. get the whole point here..not all of the supposed bad things that happend were true.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

What if the person being tortured is not a terrorist and knows nothing?

We should use those 100% accurate gentler methods? Maybe ask them nicely if they are a terrorist?

Everybody in prison is innocent too, just ask them.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This one was particularly delicious. Start at finding a way to call torture something else, and try to talk your way back out of it. It's brilliant, really.

I'll bet someone read The Gulag Archipelago.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'll bet someone read The Gulag Archipelago.

I suppose that you and Brian are more qualified than the Justice dept to determine whether or not the law was properly applied. These techniques were feeble compared to what should have been inflicted to him under Shira law. Maybe we should interrogate them under Shira law so they feel more at home? That way we dont insult their Islamic heritage.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We should use those 100% accurate gentler methods? Maybe ask them nicely if they are a terrorist?

Everybody in prison is innocent too, just ask them.

You walk down a dangerous road when you get rid of the checks and balances and let individuals become judge, jury and executioner.

Do we really want to be a country that claims to be spreading democracy and human rights around the globe while at the same time denying these same basic ideals at our choosing?

Hard to be fighting for human rights and then denying them at the same time. No?