RunfortheDoe wins Oaklawn Handicap?

[Kasept]

Look.. As many know, I'm very friendly with Marty and Karla Wolfson, so I'm going to be biased in this conversation. It would be nice if trainers didn't need to use any medication to keep the horses running, but they do, and will continue to. As the conversation with Dr. Lewis of RMTC concluded yesterday, the public perception is going to be negative whenever there is ANY kind of 'positive'.

Within racing, people can differentiate between things like anti-inflammatory overages and more nefarious positives. But the overall impression of the public is that anything in this area constitutes 'cheating'. So as with steroids and their negative implication, these infractions have to stop. One way to make this particular playing field level would be to have Model Rules applied through all jurisdictions. Then there will be no explanations, excuses or otherwise because everyone will have a standard set of guidelines to be working under.

And there has been great progress on the Model Rules initiative...

[JerseyJ]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Look.. As many know, I'm very friendly with Marty and Karla Wolfson, so I'm going to be biased in this conversation. It would be nice if trainers didn't need to use any medication to keep the horses running, but they do, and will continue to. As the conversation with Dr. Lewis of RMTC concluded yesterday, the public perception is going to be negative whenever there is ANY kind of 'positive'.

Within racing, people can differentiate between things like anti-inflammatory overages and more nefarious positives. But the overall impression of the public is that anything in this area constitutes 'cheating'. So as with steroids and their negative implication, these infractions have to stop. One way to make this particular playing field level would be to have Model Rules applied through all jurisdictions. Then there will be no explanations, excuses or otherwise because everyone will have a standard set of guidelines to be working under.

And there has been great progress on the Model Rules initiative...

Trainers don't really need to use medication...they seem to do a pretty damn good job of racing on little to no medication in Europe and Asia (Hong Kong). Yeah, trainers use medication because they can, but there are limits. Trainers have a responsibility to know what the legal limits and thresholds are wherever they go especially if they are going to be entering and running in a particular jurisdiction it is their responsibility to be aware of what they are. That's twice that Wolfson has done it. Now I agree that Pletcher isn't exactly the cleanest guy out there in the world and he deserves what he gets and so on, but how do you explain Wolfson moving horses up off Bill Mott.

Miesque's Approval was coming off races where he was simply non-competitive and even dropped into a 50K claimer at Belmont where he went off favored and he couldn't beat the group that he lined up against that day. The very same Bill Mott who is arguably one of the best trainers we have known as well as one of the master turf trainers we have ever seen. Miesque's Approval becomes non-competitive, shows up in Marty Wolfson's barn, and poof, he's a new horse and he's a G1 caliber horse. That's the type of crap that Beyer calls trainers out on and he has every right to call them out for that stuff.

[JerseyJ]

Originally Posted by Cardus

When Biancone was caught cheating in Hong Kong, he was thrown out. And here?

He's back in business here...

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

Trainers don't really need to use medication...they seem to do a pretty damn good job of racing on little to no medication in Europe and Asia (Hong Kong). Yeah, trainers use medication because they can, but there are limits. Trainers have a responsibility to know what the legal limits and thresholds are wherever they go especially if they are going to be entering and running in a particular jurisdiction it is their responsibility to be aware of what they are. That's twice that Wolfson has done it. Now I agree that Pletcher isn't exactly the cleanest guy out there in the world and he deserves what he gets and so on, but how do you explain Wolfson moving horses up off Bill Mott.

Miesque's Approval was coming off races where he was simply non-competitive and even dropped into a 50K claimer at Belmont where he went off favored and he couldn't beat the group that he lined up against that day. The very same Bill Mott who is arguably one of the best trainers we have known as well as one of the master turf trainers we have ever seen. Miesque's Approval becomes non-competitive, shows up in Marty Wolfson's barn, and poof, he's a new horse and he's a G1 caliber horse. That's the type of crap that Beyer calls trainers out on and he has every right to call them out for that stuff.

Sure Wolfson makes dramatic move-ups, but it sure as hell wasn't with Naproxin.
This guy deserves the appropriate punishment for this class 4 overage.
This isn't a witch hunt.
We can't punish him for suspicion of "designer" class1 drugging, when it was a class4.

[JerseyJ]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

Sure Wolfson makes dramatic move-ups, but it sure as hell wasn't with Naproxin.
This guy deserves the appropriate punishment for this class 4 overage.
This isn't a witch hunt.
We can't punish him for suspicion of "designer" class1 drugging, when it was a class4.

I don't give a damn what drug he was charged with an overage. I don't care what trainers are charged with an overage. They all deserve to be dealt with swiftly and with harsh punishment. Multiple offenders even more harshly punished as well. 3-6 months for first time offenders for example, 6-12 months for 2nd time offenders, and 12 months to life bans for 3rd time offenders.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Actually, it is the 2nd positive of his career. Both have been with Class 4 items. The first was the Isoxsuprine case with Can't Beat It in Chicago. Illinois ended up agreeing with Wolfson on the case, over-turned the violation, and then changed their own withdrawl guidelines on the product from an outlandish 21 days when the rest of the country uses 4-7 days as the guideline.

This is the point of the RMTC Model Rules project. Horsemen widely use things like anti-infammatories, and the guidelines and levels are all over the place for them. In this case, Wolfson took It's a Bird off it 120 hours before the race. In New York, they suggest coming off it only 48 hours before... Other jurisdictions suggest 96-120 hours. Arkansas doesn't even have a published guideline in the system.

Here's the RMTC Withdrawl Times engine:
http://www.rmtcnet.com/withdrawal_agree.asp

You're going to continue to have these kinds of positives with the wide disparities in allowable levels of the various medications. Like Todd Pletcher's Procaine positive and Disqualification with Wait a While in the Breeders' Cup...

from what i read, can't beat it had two positives, the one you mentioned and naproxen-for which he was given a $1000 fine.



from drf: In 2006, Wolfson had two Class 4 positives, for naproxen and isoxsuprine, a vasodilator, on Can't Beat It, who finished second in the Grade 2 American Derby at Arlington Park.

The horse was initially disqualified and placed last, but following an appeal his runner-up finish was reinstated. The Illinois Racing Board retroactively restored the finish after it set threshold levels for isoxsuprine. The naproxen ruling stood, and Wolfson was fined $1,000.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

I don't give a damn what drug he was charged with an overage. I don't care what trainers are charged with an overage. They all deserve to be dealt with swiftly and with harsh punishment. Multiple offenders even more harshly punished as well. 3-6 months for first time offenders for example, 6-12 months for 2nd time offenders, and 12 months to life bans for 3rd time offenders.

i disagree, and i've been very open regarding my disdain for steve asmussen (for one) and his oft-repeated overages. i would think in this particular case dealing with naproxen that perhaps they should have a threshold limit since widthdrawal times are seemingly unpredictable. what would really be nice is if they had one set of rules, one set of guidelines, nationwide. differing allowances (oaklawn is zero tolerance on naproxen) from state to state doesn't help a trainer, nor does conflicting guidelines on when to stop administering a drug. brass hat was dq'd after his trainer followed dubais rules regarding when to stop administering a drug in order to run legally there. OOPS-he followed the rules and still got 'caught'. we want horses to ship from one area to another, but it gets dicey when they confront a rules change at the same time.


i wonder if shipping, and a horse being van/stall bound will affect metabolizing?

as for multiple offenders, absolutely they should be punished more harshly. but i do not believe that a trainer with a class four should be treated in the same manner as one with a class one overage for example.

assman, by the way, has his hearing now scheduled for july. the 7th i believe.

[Bobby Fischer]

I think there is a place for new creative ways to go after the actual move-up drugs. One idea is to go after the side effects. These type of side effects could be one way to regulate undetectable drugs. For example EPO abuse could theoretically lead to a change in the blood composition or even anemia. Steroid or Growth Hormones may lead to estrogen conversion or some kind of hormone imbalance. If a horse fails the side effects screening, it could be kept out of racing on the grounds of failing a vet test. Just a brainstorming idea.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

I think there is a place for new creative ways to go after the actual move-up drugs. One idea is to go after the side effects. These type of side effects could be one way to regulate undetectable drugs. For example EPO abuse could theoretically lead to a change in the blood composition or even anemia. Steroid or Growth Hormones may lead to estrogen conversion or some kind of hormone imbalance. If a horse fails the side effects screening, it could be kept out of racing on the grounds of failing a vet test. Just a brainstorming idea.

isn't that how they caught manny? he didn't test positive for a drug specifically, but had high levels of something that indicated the use of the drug...
or maybe i imagined all that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

While that would be nice, it is, again, a red herring (see Kasept, above).

Let's not deflect attention away from the offending party.

i wasn't attempting to do that. but some common sense in place would be nice. you can't have 20 (or so) different sets of rules and regs, and then expect people to ship from point a, to b, to c, without any concern other than travel costs. but i do know that i wouldn't touch a drug like naproxen if it's that haphazard.
this is supposed to be a professional sport...just think how it would be if the redskins, the yankees, the red sox had different sets of criteria every time they played an away game? but each away game is different than that last away game in az, or new jersey..


BUT, in the end, just like with mullins in new york-it is on the trainers shoulders to meet the requirements. wolfson presumably did not in this case.

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this is supposed to be a professional sport...just think how it would be if the redskins, the yankees, the red sox had different sets of criteria every time they played an away game? but each away game is different than that last away game in az, or new jersey.

[10 pnt move up]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/105701.html

I am sure it was just another mix up, or somehow the stable hand made the mistake but this man sure has been unlucky lately. I feel for him.

and I should be betting my hard earned over taxed money on this sport because.....?

[randallscott35]

To be fair this is old news and a positive that was discussed more than a month ago.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

http://www.drf.com/news/article/105701.html

I am sure it was just another mix up, or somehow the stable hand made the mistake but this man sure has been unlucky lately. I feel for him.

and I should be betting my hard earned over taxed money on this sport because.....?

Because we want to prove Mullins correct.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

To be fair this is old news and a positive that was discussed more than a month ago.

sorry, just saw the article and did not realize this thread.

This guy is a cheat, you have to be pretty stubborn not to recognize that there is some funny stuff going on in that barn.

[Indian Charlie]

Will Wolfson have to take out a third mortgate to pay off that behemoth fine he received?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

http://www.drf.com/news/article/105701.html

I am sure it was just another mix up, or somehow the stable hand made the mistake but this man sure has been unlucky lately. I feel for him.

and I should be betting my hard earned over taxed money on this sport because.....?

it's fun? you enjoy the challenge?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's fun? you enjoy the challenge?

I have fun drinking Johnny Walker Blue....doesnt me I should be

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Because we want to prove Mullins correct.

Sums it up better than anything. And this sport wonders why it is driving people like me away.