Summer Bird pointed for The BC

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Revidere

It's a foregone conclusion that Summer Bird will beat Zenyatta in California. His beyers are higher.

As for Rachel; if she wins the Woodward, it looks like she's done for the year.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...after-woodward

he can't enter the distaff!

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I mean, I get what your point is, even though I vehemently disagree -- but you're definitely right here...not every race can be filled with quality foes like Dunkirk and Hold Me Back, right?

Well a win over It's a Bird who I might add will be the wiseguy choice fresh off the Wolfson 'Icon affect' or plugger Macho Again who would be hard pressed to beat 'I need the universe and stars to align' Mine That Bird is certainly better than a win over Quality Road or 'I need the universe and stars to align' Mine That Bird. What's wrong with Dunkirk? I remember during this years Derby many of the Beyer disciples were picking him. We know they are rarely wrong...

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If Rachel is less than overwhelming in the Woodward, Summer Bird whips the same bunch in the Gold Cup and wins the classic I think he will have a legit chance at HOY. If RA were to lose the Woodward and SB was to win out I dont think it would even be a contest.

You have the biggest hard on for this filly. She has beat the Ky Derby winner, Travers winner, Belmont winner, Ark winner, etc etc.. Add the Woodward, and put in context winning the Preakness short, switching barns coming off a huge G1 20 length score. Do you really think she wouldn't have slaughtered Summer Bird in the Travers? I really like Summer Bird and he is a very nice G1 colt but he can't get within 5 or 6 lengths of her. Rachel is getting better we haven't seen the bottom. A Woodward win secures Horse of the Year period.. If she loses the Woodward and Summer Bird wins JCGC and Classic (he won't) then SB has a claim if Rachel doesn't beat Zenyatta in the Beldame or wins Beldame and decides to crush in the Disstaff..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by freddymo

if Rachel doesn't beat Zenyatta in the Beldame or wins Beldame and decides to crush in the Disstaff..

Is she coming? Or are you speculating.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by CSC

Is she coming? Or are you speculating.

I don't have any reason to believe she will come . TVG is brilliant for talking up this whopdie doo 400K purse increase. Like the Moss's are going to be influenced by the opportunity to win 240k more. BUT good ole TVG has gotten a huge amoint of mileage out of the offer..

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Revidere

It's a foregone conclusion that Summer Bird will beat Zenyatta in California. His beyers are higher.

As for Rachel; if she wins the Woodward, it looks like she's done for the year.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...after-woodward

Based on what?...Summer Bird has no beyers showing for synthetic tracks....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Before synthetic surfaces were used, was there an outcry every year for "sporting" people to move their horses from dirt to turf and vice versa at the top level of the game? Not to my knowledge. Why? They are different surfaces and very, very rarely is a horse suited for more than one surface.

There is no difference between a trainer declining to run a dominant dirt horse on turf and declining to run a dominant dirt horse on a synthetic surface.

To me, this is a simple concept.

I don't begrudge any owner or trainer for refusing to run a dominant dirt horse on a synthetic surface.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I don't have any reason to believe she will come . TVG is brilliant for talking up this whopdie doo 400K purse increase. Like the Moss's are going to be influenced by the opportunity to win 240k more. BUT good ole TVG has gotten a huge amoint of mileage out of the offer..

Oh I thought you may have heard something that was not reported, I would be very surprised if Zenyatta steps out of California this year though money is never a bad motivator, so who knows..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Based on what?...Summer Bird has no beyers showing for synthetic tracks....

And so does Rachel Alexandra, but atleast he is going to be put in a position to possibly fail, to me that is far more admiral than not trying at all. Everyone keeps assuming RA will not be good on pro ride, the fact is no one knows for sure and here we are with the biggest star in the game absent on the biggest day of racing.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by CSC

And so does Rachel Alexandra, but atleast he is going to be put in a position to possibly fail, to me that is far more admiral than not trying at all. Everyone keeps assuming RA will not be good on pro ride, the fact is no one knows for sure and here we are with the biggest star in the game absent on the biggest day of racing.

I see no reason to believe RA will sux on Pro Ride. DrugS seems to think that she will be slaughtered on it but that is based on her trainers lack of success and not RA. Jess wants to make a statement and he wants to use his prize to make it.. At this point I could careless eitherway. Once she wins the Woodward and Beldame ,with or without, Zenyatta she will have stamped her ticket. Assuming she wins both those two races she will be forever known as one of the very best race horses to ever run. This is not to say she is the greatest of all time or even the very best filly, just one of a select group of animals that depict the best the breed has to offer.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I see no reason to believe RA will sux on Pro Ride. DrugS seems to think that she will be slaughtered on it but that is based on her trainers lack of success and not RA. Jess wants to make a statement and he wants to use his prize to make it.. At this point I could careless eitherway. Once she wins the Woodward and Beldame ,with or without, Zenyatta she will have stamped her ticket. Assuming she wins both those two races she will be forever known as one of the very best race horses to ever run. This is not to say she is the greatest of all time or even the very best filly, just one of a select group of animals that depict the best the breed has to offer.

You bring up a good point of discussion, since the inception of the BC, has there ever been a horse considered great without running in it? Even if they didn't win.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by CSC

You bring up a good point of discussion, since the inception of the BC, has there ever been a horse considered great without running in it? Even if they didn't win.

I think if you go back and watch the Preakness replay (DRF posted it and her other big wins) you can understand why these other horses simply arent in her class. Save Zenyatta who desires a shot to beat Rachel none of theses other Colts or Horses are fast enough. Maybe this Icon Project emerges as serious competition.


Zarkava never ran in it..I think we all know she was friggin great. Lot's of Euro's have passed on the BC. Who needs to win the BC turf when you have the Arc? Plus you have all the laimo's that got retired in advance of the BCC.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by CSC

You bring up a good point of discussion, since the inception of the BC, has there ever been a horse considered great without running in it? Even if they didn't win.

"Great" is open to interpretation, but Mineshaft got HOY without running in the BC.

Ooh- fun trivia you pose, actually. Were there any other HOY who didn't run in the BC?

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

"Great" is open to interpretation, but Mineshaft got HOY without running in the BC.

Ooh- fun trivia you pose, actually. Were there any other HOY who didn't run in the BC?

Clearly I need to get a life and off the internet... Google is the greatest time waster known to mankind:

HOY who didn't run in the Breeders Cup:
John Henry
Spend a Buck
Criminal Type
Holy Bull
Charismatic
Point Given
Mineshaft

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

The thing is regardless of how much we want to make of this 3 yr old filly vs older males, this isn't an overwhelming bunch of horses. Unless she wins in spectacular fashion I don't see the huge significance, it's not like Goldikova winning the Arc when she beat the best field of European horses over there, she would be beating a group of horses that are no better than tier 2 horses over here. I understand the historical significance but I really don't understand the glam factor the public is making of this. So she beats Macho or Pass The Point. Nice but awe inspiring no.

On this, we agree. Some people want to play both sides of the fence, on one hand talking about how bad this group of older horses is but then on the other side giving her extra credit for taking them on. I know I'm a broken recordon this but what should be looked at is the level of competition and not the age or sex. Facing the boys or facing older doesn't automatically mean it's a harder assignment. Say the Breeders' Cup was being run on dirt at Churchill this year. As much as we've been clamoring for Zenyatta to face males and run in the Classic, if Jackson were to put Rachel in the Distaff, wouldn't that be the bigger challenge for Zenyatta to take on and not the males in the Classic?

While this is the toughest field and deepest one she's faced, let's not go overboard and call it a tough challenge. Sure, any horse can lose any race but going in, she's by far the best horse and any loss would be considered a huge upset. Since when is it considered such a huge obstacle to overcome a field in which you are 1-2 on the morning line?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by CSC

Well a win over It's a Bird who I might add will be the wiseguy choice fresh off the Wolfson 'Icon affect' or plugger Macho Again who would be hard pressed to beat 'I need the universe and stars to align' Mine That Bird is certainly better than a win over Quality Road or 'I need the universe and stars to align' Mine That Bird. What's wrong with Dunkirk? I remember during this years Derby many of the Beyer disciples were picking him. We know they are rarely wrong...

Well I can only speak for myself in the portion of the conversation we're having together -- but Dunkirk always reeked of an overhyped NW2X horse...and has basically proven to be such...just one who is bred well enough to get 2nd in the least meaningful of the Triple Crown races.

So basically, everything is wrong with Dunkirk. He's not as good as everyone pretended he was. Bird beating him means as little as Quality Road beating him, something I pointed out ad nauseum elsewhere before the Travers. Beating Dunkirk is not a claim to fame, even if you do it in a Grade I race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

And so does Rachel Alexandra, but atleast he is going to be put in a position to possibly fail, to me that is far more admiral than not trying at all. Everyone keeps assuming RA will not be good on pro ride, the fact is no one knows for sure and here we are with the biggest star in the game absent on the biggest day of racing.

no one said they thought she would be bad on it. jackson doesn't like the stuff, and doesn't like how horses go over it. he may also not like how his trainer does regarding the stuff....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

"Great" is open to interpretation, but Mineshaft got HOY without running in the BC.

Ooh- fun trivia you pose, actually. Were there any other HOY who didn't run in the BC?

declan's moon got top 2 yo without running there.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

On this, we agree. Some people want to play both sides of the fence, on one hand talking about how bad this group of older horses is but then on the other side giving her extra credit for taking them on. I know I'm a broken recordon this but what should be looked at is the level of competition and not the age or sex. Facing the boys or facing older doesn't automatically mean it's a harder assignment. Say the Breeders' Cup was being run on dirt at Churchill this year. As much as we've been clamoring for Zenyatta to face males and run in the Classic, if Jackson were to put Rachel in the Distaff, wouldn't that be the bigger challenge for Zenyatta to take on and not the males in the Classic?
While this is the toughest field and deepest one she's faced, let's not go overboard and call it a tough challenge. Sure, any horse can lose any race but going in, she's by far the best horse and any loss would be considered a huge upset. Since when is it considered such a huge obstacle to overcome a field in which you are 1-2 on the morning line?

not necessarily. if sea the stars was to come, i think zenyatta would have a hard time. also, a full field might pose problems due to her running style. rail trip might even be too much. but the classic point is most likely moot, as i don't see zenyatta going vs the males.

besides, the surface is a question for rachel. i think that's why everyone wants a matchup on dirt, since both have proven ability on the real thing.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Clearly I need to get a life and off the internet... Google is the greatest time waster known to mankind:

HOY who didn't run in the Breeders Cup:
John Henry
Spend a Buck
Criminal Type
Holy Bull
Charismatic
Point Given
Mineshaft

This is good work, I would only call 2 of those on the list great, 1 horse could have been but I am convinced his quizzable premature retirement left a big question mark on how history would judge him.