So just WHO targets and kills civilians??

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, you do hold the majority viewpoint. But, disingenous or regretable as it may seem to you, I think a lot of people feel there is way more to it.

Those MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS you refer to have now lived their adult lives seeing the well spoken tones of reasonable people approach as flawed, failed and fruitless.

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.

So, yeah, that along with the Palestinian issue has the moderate Arabs, leaders or otherwise, having very good reason to hold the West in distrust and this is where the appeal of the edgier and worse (you call it what you want, that's ok) Islamic factions gain traction.

You could likely go on at length about how none of this rationalizes terrroists or behavior that supports terrorist groups and you'd be right. That does not, however, change the game. The game gets changed by starting to understand and appreciate how and why adversaries act as they do.

The U.S. now is seen by Arabs as so strongly Pro-Israeli / Anti-Arab that there is not a chance in hell that America CAN be a mediating leader in the region.

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s

I guess at some point I have to ask..."so what?"
I agree that we must attempt to find peaceful solutions...every life lost is tragic but we cannot go around hanging our heads cause some folks don't like us! We have made plenty of mistakes...so what? The Israelis aren't perfect...so what? We must do the right thing regardless of how it plays in the Arab world...what is the alternative? Throw Israel to the wolves...stand back and allow the terrorists to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East? Enough of the hand-wringing and self-flagellation! The terrorists stop killing innocent folks or we wipe them out, countries stop supporting them or get more than their feelings hurt! I refuse to insert my head up my butt and pretend that the only bad people in the world are George Bush and the Israelis!

Originally Posted by SentToStud

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s

That is exactly the type of statement I see as so dangerous. Anyone who is against you is a dog. A Jew. The extremists make the other side out to be evil and God has called ONE to punish them and the masses BELIEVE. The Islamic extremists that hold this view are to be feared. I do not believe the majority of Muslims feel this way. But they are doing absolutely nothing to stop this tide and then good people become Nazi like. There is not a person on this board who could ever claim that if they lived in Germany in the 1930's that they would not have been swayed, good people swayed. The deafening silence that meet Iran's president when he claimed that Israel should not exist is shocking. This man stepped out on the limb to become a leader of this movement and said it, no one stood against him. He GAINED standing in the Islamic world. People that are clearly terrorists are becoming HERO'S.

If there is anyone that does not find this absolutelty chilling... We can continue to talk about how this sort of unity is brought about, just like people look at the horrible state the Germans were in after WWI and how the population was ripe for this type of behavior. We can continue to talk about how the current US administration exacerbates the situation (I do not believe WE are doing God's work even if GW does)... But it does NOT EXCUSE the behavior and the GLORIFICATION OF THE ACTS. And I am not going to get shot. I can say it, debate it, etc... That is not happening in the Islamic world.

BTW I think everyone should read about the Palestinians plight. Its not just Israel that has shoved them around. Jordan, Syria, etc... did not want to have anything to do with them and actually giving the Palestinians a place to stay. They instead used them. IN FAct some of these countries drove the Palestinians out of areas they lived in. To blame Israel for all the Palestinians problems is a terrible oversimplification.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.
regards,
-s2s

The majority is not always right. I would agree we have a unique relationship with Israel. We have voted for some things that I would not agree with and would go with the rest of the world. But when you say 13-1 you have to look who is voting. Do you expect China and Russia to vote with US? Do you expect France which has very close ties with the Arab world to vote with US? Would you expect some very antisemitic European countries to vote with Israel?

And really we need not get into UN resolutions getting voted for or against... when the UN votes to remove arms from Hezbollah and then no one except the US and Britian bring up this resolution??? And now Lebanon says Hezbollah will not be forced to disarm... Unbelievable.

Round 1 is over. Nothing has been solved. Israel will wait until more rockets are fired in the future, point back to this cease-fire and UN troops inability to stop an Iranian puppet, use this as lessoned learned and go in much more forcefully. Lebanon's puppet government has set up more innocent people for slaughter to blame on Israel. The extremists will not be able to hold back... There is no country within a country crap anymore.

How was the current situation started? Hezbollah came across the border and did what? ANd for what purpose? The timing was....
Israel now knows many more rockets await as Iran rearms Hezbollah and plan for a far more destructive encounter in the future. Thats just wonderful news for all. You just know this is exactly what is happening. Good news for Iran. For southern Lebanon... sadly, dead people dont complain. I fear next time you will not see TV coverage of people in Southern Lebanon streaming North trying to uncover their dead relatives bodies before they leave. They wont complain just like the 30,000 people that were slaughtered in one very large quick massacre in Hama Syria carried out by the elder Assad.

Ever heard of this massacre? Arab v. Arab. You say Iraq considers US soldiers Jews while Shia slaughters Sunni and vice versa in much larger numbers than have occurred in Lebanon. They want us out so one of the two groups can take over and then turn on the Kurds. Wonderful.

But at the United Nations in New York, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Secretary General Kofi Annan to ensure the complete disarmament of Hezbollah and to prevent it from being rearmed by Iran and Syria.

This is a "moment of truth" for the international community, she said. The world cannot "allow Hezbollah to rise again and threaten the future of the region."



This statement from Israel is BS. This will be Israel's reason for going back in a most severe manner. imo the UN will not be able to disarm Hezbollah and Israel will come right back to statements like this. The Israelis know right now that Hezbollah is being rearmed, they know this.

I am very sad to say round 2 will be devastation. This is a setup statement for a knockout punch. Israel knows that absolutely nothing was accomplished long term in round 1. No soldiers back, Hezbollah not wiped out, not even disarmed. It was a failure and there are vows within the military to not fail again in a confrontation like this. And the failure is now thought to be one of not going in to win and underestimating the enemy. The same mistake will not be made twice.

DTS, STS do you want Hezbollah disarmed? or do you want the above. I pray that somehow, someone understands what a second conflict will mean. A massacre.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

But at the United Nations in New York, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Secretary General Kofi Annan to ensure the complete disarmament of Hezbollah and to prevent it from being rearmed by Iran and Syria.

This is a "moment of truth" for the international community, she said. The world cannot "allow Hezbollah to rise again and threaten the future of the region."



This statement from Israel is BS. This will be Israel's reason for going back in a most severe manner. imo the UN will not be able to disarm Hezbollah and Israel will come right back to statements like this. The Israelis know right now that Hezbollah is being rearmed, they know this.

I am very sad to say round 2 will be devastation. This is a setup statement for a knockout punch. Israel knows that absolutely nothing was accomplished long term in round 1. No soldiers back, Hezbollah not wiped out, not even disarmed. It was a failure and there are vows within the military to not fail again in a confrontation like this. And the failure is now thought to be one of not going in to win and underestimating the enemy. The same mistake will not be made twice.

DTS, STS do you want Hezbollah disarmed? or do you want the above. I pray that somehow, someone understands what a second conflict will mean. A massacre.

1. of course, I want Hezbollah disarmed
2. I agree the statement from Israel is BS
3. I do not promote or condone the Hezbollah violence, just try to understand it in the wider and necessary context.
4. Round 2 will be worse than round 1, I agree.

There's no good guy winners here. The Lebanese, already a fledgling democracy before this, are now frail and fragile. And if the gov't there fails, the next man up is, indeed Hezbollah. Bad for Lebanon, worse for the overal region, including Israel.

The Israelis certainly do not appear winners and it certainly appears Olmert and the Kadima party are done. The problem with running a centrrist party is that you get sniped at on both sides as Olmert is learning.

The Palestinians/Hamas-led leaders are losers as well. The freest elections ever held in Palestine are going to have been an exercise in futility. The most likely new Israeli power will absolutely no longer withdraw from occupied Palestinian land or close settlements, further pushing away from any chance for real peace in the region. The Arab world will see more "starvation blockades," courtesy of the Israeli hardliners.

And, of course, the rest of the civilized Western World, courtesy of Pres. Bush and blindly loyal American support of Israel is a big loser. The U.S. influence at the UN, blocking early cerase-fire efforts, supplying Israel wth its arms and especially our pre-attack support of the Israeli offensive obviously backfired as the goal of disarming Hezbollah was not remotely close to being achieved.

Moving forward, we'll see the fringe Islamist groups continue to gain traction while Bush gets urged by his dwindling base tp push forward and hard on Iran as his last chance to save his presidency in the eyes of his final few supporters.

pgardn, sorry if you find my comments offensive, but this is how many people see the world. And in turn, you can be assured I am not offended when you call me disingenuous or whatever other term you choose to use.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Syria and Iran (courageous as they are) wll fight untill the last Lebonese and the last Palestinian are dead.

Unless some bizzare abberation takes place the assault and destuction of Iran will not start until about 6 months before the upcoming Presidential election in 08. Americans do not change horses in wartime. Overwelming destruction and death in Iran/Syria is the ticket Condi, Knute or Rudi will ride into the White House.

Some of my pupils from ****** took me into So. Lebanon yesterday. I have never seen nor smelled anything like that in my entire life. The BS being yakked about Hezz financing and aiding in rebuilding the destruction is just that, BS.

Nasrahllah, Assad and that psycho from Iran are "dead men walking".

• Israel needs new leadership ... Olmert = Chamberlain ... Bibi = Churchill

• The next war will not be tied to the U.S. election cycle ... it will be provoked at random by the deluded Islamists who think they "won" this one.

• Let's hope the next war will be decided by a combination of killing the top terrorists ... Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, Assad, Nasrullah, Princequillo ... and provoking a popular uprising in Iran ... rather than by the severe destruction ... Germay/Japan-style ... of entire nations.

But ... no matter how it goes ... the deluded Islamists are in for a rude awakening ... or rather ... a rude deadening.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

But at the United Nations in New York, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Secretary General Kofi Annan to ensure the complete disarmament of Hezbollah and to prevent it from being rearmed by Iran and Syria.

This is a "moment of truth" for the international community, she said. The world cannot "allow Hezbollah to rise again and threaten the future of the region."



This statement from Israel is BS. This will be Israel's reason for going back in a most severe manner. imo the UN will not be able to disarm Hezbollah and Israel will come right back to statements like this. The Israelis know right now that Hezbollah is being rearmed, they know this.

I am very sad to say round 2 will be devastation. This is a setup statement for a knockout punch. Israel knows that absolutely nothing was accomplished long term in round 1. No soldiers back, Hezbollah not wiped out, not even disarmed. It was a failure and there are vows within the military to not fail again in a confrontation like this. And the failure is now thought to be one of not going in to win and underestimating the enemy. The same mistake will not be made twice.

DTS, STS do you want Hezbollah disarmed? or do you want the above. I pray that somehow, someone understands what a second conflict will mean. A massacre.

Pgardn,
I sure would like Hezbollah disarmed.
I also would like to see Iran and North Korea disarmed.
Heck, while we're at it..I'd like to see every country disarmed.
The reality is that that's not going to happen any time soon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Einstein shared similar views.
So...until the world's belligerents decide to employ other strategies to resolve "valid" grievances, seems to me that "colon cleansing" is the answer.
Just remember to stand way back...cause when the sh-t let's go, you best not be in the line of fire.

Honestly, I really DO have difficulty understanding the motivations that drive humans to be willing to die for this nonsense.
Now I expect the responses...DTS.."you're so naive", "such an idealist"...blah, blah, blah. "What? You didn't post something from common dreams?"
Colon cleansing!
More than enough to go around.


btw...stock tip of the day...invest in Marcal Paper products and the mfg. of "depends".

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
Honestly, I really DO have difficulty understanding the motivations that drive humans to be willing to die for this nonsense.
Now I expect the responses...DTS.."you're so naive", "such an idealist"...blah, blah, blah. "What? You didn't post something from common dreams?"
Colon cleansing!
More than enough to go around.


btw...stock tip of the day...invest in Marcal Paper products and the mfg. of "depends".

The conditions of severe poverty and hopelessness, with a good dose of brainwashing are the recipe for making the monsters you speak of. Again, we can try and rectify the production of monsters, but this is a long term process (and for God's sake for those of you who say it is all Israels fault look at the totalitarian leadership in the Middle East and how the Druze, Shiites, and Sunnis will go at each other with or without Israel).
The question that Israel must answer NOW is a monster stands before you, no matter how the monster was made, what are you going to do? The two statements presented above are so Republican (Dammit do something now, we will wade thru all the sh it we have caused later... hopefully...) and Democratic (well we know its not really your fault you are a monster, so how bout a nice talk while you slit my throat, shall we?)

I hate political parties for these obvious errors. Sorry to rant.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

• Israel needs new leadership ... Olmert = Chamberlain ... Bibi = Churchill

Olmert... maybe... a little early for that, he may have learned his lesson. Bibi = Mussolini

[Scurlogue Champ]

I have been reading some stuff on this website and it is interesting.

Don't really know what to make of all of it, but it seems to be written from an educated point of view.

I stay up too late and type in things like "How dangerous is China" too often in the Google bar.

[Scurlogue Champ]

I have been reading some stuff on this website and it is interesting.

Don't really know what to make of all of it, but it seems to be written from an educated point of view.

I stay up too late and type in things like "How dangerous is China" too often in the Google bar.

http://www.d-n-i.net/

[Downthestretch55]

S2S,
This is for you.
I came across it today...and I thought you might find the read interesting.
There will be a few that point a finger at me for posting this, but I really don't care.
It's so ironic to me that the place where Jesus preformed His first miracle, Cana, is now the same place, Qana, in desperate need for another miracle.


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0819-26.htm

And, btw...anyone that thinks of bashing me for posting this from "Common Dreams"...read it first. Talk about the content later.
Or don't.

DTS

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The conditions of severe poverty and hopelessness, with a good dose of brainwashing are the recipe for making the monsters you speak of. Again, we can try and rectify the production of monsters, but this is a long term process (and for God's sake for those of you who say it is all Israels fault look at the totalitarian leadership in the Middle East and how the Druze, Shiites, and Sunnis will go at each other with or without Israel).
The question that Israel must answer NOW is a monster stands before you, no matter how the monster was made, what are you going to do? The two statements presented above are so Republican (Dammit do something now, we will wade thru all the sh it we have caused later... hopefully...) and Democratic (well we know its not really your fault you are a monster, so how bout a nice talk while you slit my throat, shall we?)

I hate political parties for these obvious errors. Sorry to rant.

Pgardn,
Vali Nasr was on "Meet the Press" today. Interesting insights.
Here's a review of his book...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0820-25.htm

[skippy3481]

Okay Dts, i have to comment now. Besides being a biased article it makes no sense. So its okay for hezbollah to fire rockets into israel and kill innocent people but now israel is a bigger terrorist for killing 23 children. Wow how can someone become so jaded.

Civilians are killed on both sides, thats what happens when weapons to solve problems. I feel sorry for people on both sides of the conflict, but that does not make israel terrorists. They didn't start the shooting, they just decided to fire back bigger. So where does the blame lie?

I just keep coming back and putting myself in their shoes.Let me paint a picture.
What if canada was filled with millions of people whose goal was to wipe the U.S. off the map. What if they started firing rockets into the northern US. How would be respond? Would we try to talk them down as people died or would we load are planes up and bomb them into submission. I think we both know the answer. All in all israel showed restraint because they could have absolutely rained destruction on lebanon and its population.

Let's face it-these people have been fighting for for 3000+ years, it's not going to stop overnight.

[SentToStud]

ok, Skippy, here's a couple questions for you:

1. Why the heck is the best the Israelis could do was fighting these guys to a draw?
2. Where did the Israeli resolve to win this war go?
3. Why the heck do the Israels love to negotiate so much? They gave up 400 prisoners for Elhanin a couple years back. 400!!!
4. So you know ANYTHING about the hundreds of Arab prisoners held illegally by Israel? Do you think the world, or at least the Arab world, should stand by idly while this goes on and on and on?

[SentToStud]

[quote=Dixie Porter]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

ok, Skippy, here's a couple questions for you:

1. Why the heck is the best the Israelis could do was fighting these guys to a draw?
QUOTE]
Dateline: Tel Aviv, Israel

"Good morning Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea"

If this was a draw I'd hate to think what a Win would have looked like.

Anyway it was a good scrimage for the Big Game with Damascus/Tehran.

Anyone notice the week of war games being advertised in Iran. This obsever sees a little puddle under those two despot's panties.

As I said before, I was in S. Lebanon for about 10 hours. We had to wear masks to avoid the stench of death.

South Lebanon is old news. You should get your butt back to TelAviv to see the predicted bickering among the Israelis about "what went wrong" and also to see if the Israelis break their own world record for making the most unfavorable prisoner exchange ever (the odds on that are 1-9 that they will).

[skippy3481]

Dixie,
The answer to your question is quite simple. They do not want to be the ones to start world war 3. Lets face it. For a country israels size, they are absolutely loaded. They could carpet bomb lebanon off the map. The problem is if they start a giant pissing match they will end up with 100 million arabs at their doorstep and i know they aren't totally sure if the british/us will come help them. That leaves them 2 options
1-Bomb tactically and try to achieve your goals with a minimal loss of civilian life

2.Throw everything they have at syria-iran-lebanon-including the use of nukes.

THey choose 1 and they found out it didn't work which absolutely terrifies me because only one option is left and there is no way that israel is going to go down without a fight.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by skippy3481

Dixie,
The answer to your question is quite simple. They do not want to be the ones to start world war 3. Lets face it. For a country israels size, they are absolutely loaded. They could carpet bomb lebanon off the map. The problem is if they start a giant pissing match they will end up with 100 million arabs at their doorstep and i know they aren't totally sure if the british/us will come help them. That leaves them 2 options
1-Bomb tactically and try to achieve your goals with a minimal loss of civilian life

2.Throw everything they have at syria-iran-lebanon-including the use of nukes.

THey choose 1 and they found out it didn't work which absolutely terrifies me because only one option is left and there is no way that israel is going to go down without a fight.

Skippy,
You sound as crazy as Dubbya did at today's news conference.
He answered a question about Iraq by saying, "We will never leave while I'm in office." The "goals" remain unclear. I would have asked...what do you, Mr President, define as victory? Is it no WMD's, no Saddam? A stable democracy based on the will of the people?
Whenever any of those things happen, perhaps there will be reason to proclaim "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
Unfortunately, in the meantime..an itty bitty civil war has gotten in the way.
And, as we all know, we are much safer now. Just leave your toothpaste home before you go to the airport.
"We have nothing to fear but..your wife's hair gel."


Back to Israel...mission accomplished? Right????
Their actions and results, though supported by the umm, err, ehh, present "administration", have only made US credibility in the region more tenuous. Hezbollah has the credibility, like it or not. They are rebuilding the country's infrastructure that Israel destroyed. Israel is also the one that has violated the current UN cease fire...twice.
So, they won't go down without a fight? They've already fought to a draw.
The US doesn't have sufficient forces to support current engagements in Afghanistan and Iraq. So, do you really think that the US will involve itself in conflict with Iran should Israel decide to become an aggressor in that situation? If Israel decides to use nukes, they will be bombed in kind by others that have same and are sympathetic to Iran.

So, if I'm reading your astute analysis of the situation correctly, #2 would be to use nukes against Syria-Lebanon-Iran.
Should they decide to follow your "advice", I'll give you my advice.
Go to the grocery store and buy a five pound jar of honey.
Take off your underwear and spread it all over your buttocks.
Then, spread your knees nice and wide with your puckered lips between them.
That way, you can kiss your sweet a ss goodbye.

Remind me if there is a need to fill a state department job...just make sure your resume doesn't include that minor detail about dropping out of the school for retarded diplomat wanna-bes...you won't get the job.
Keep trying. Maybe Canada will fire rockets towards the US, as you suggest.

[skippy3481]

Dts,
Why the hostility towards men man. Whats up with that. I dont understand why you feel the need to personally attack me.

It seems so simple to me. Its obvious that iran wants Israel dead. That point we have to agree on. It is afterall common knowledge. We must also agree that iran is supporting hezbollah. That also is a fact. So add that up for me. Wait hang on Ill help.
A country that wants to wipe israel off the map, plus a terrorist group that is hell bent on destroying israel, plus a great deal of weaponary. You know what i was wrong, they will probably just forget about each other and stop fighting. There is going to come a point where someone is really going to piss israel off. I couldn't tell you when it will be or who it will be but eventually it has to happen. We need to work on resolving the situation now before it comes to that because if we don't thats where the first bomb will fall. Israel is not going to keep accepting rockety attacks-suicide bombers- and the like.

Also, why do you feel the need to lump me in with bush. I didn't vote for the man or the administration, yet you somehow realized that i must be a conservative. My point of view has very little to do with the US. Its all about israel. We dont control their nucleur codes, they do.

Finally again with another attack of myself and my example. I merely set up a situation in which to put ourselves that was similiar to the israelis current one. I realize fully canada would never fire rockets into the US. But "we" as americans have a hard time getting over ourselves. It always has to be about us. This time its not about us. This U.N truce wont hold and you know it. Do you know how many truces they have had in the region in the last 2000 years ? So far they are 0-a whole hell of a lot. So unless "we" as americans and the rest of the world become proactive in the situation and help the middle east become more stable( and no i dont mean more treaties) then this could escalate to a point where no one can stop it.
And yes, if israel and tehran start exchanging blows the U.S will join in. Because bush wants a part of that.

Last thing-dts-you've always been a standup guy please dont continue to attack me. Attack my logic and my points but please dont attack me. It proves absolutely nothing and really hinders any logical debate. If you don't want logical debate then do let me know via pm and and I'll be happy to skip your posts from now on.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by skippy3481

Dts,
Why the hostility towards men man. Whats up with that. I dont understand why you feel the need to personally attack me.

It seems so simple to me. Its obvious that iran wants Israel dead. That point we have to agree on. It is afterall common knowledge. We must also agree that iran is supporting hezbollah. That also is a fact. So add that up for me. Wait hang on Ill help.
A country that wants to wipe israel off the map, plus a terrorist group that is hell bent on destroying israel, plus a great deal of weaponary. You know what i was wrong, they will probably just forget about each other and stop fighting. There is going to come a point where someone is really going to piss israel off. I couldn't tell you when it will be or who it will be but eventually it has to happen. We need to work on resolving the situation now before it comes to that because if we don't thats where the first bomb will fall. Israel is not going to keep accepting rockety attacks-suicide bombers- and the like.

Also, why do you feel the need to lump me in with bush. I didn't vote for the man or the administration, yet you somehow realized that i must be a conservative. My point of view has very little to do with the US. Its all about israel. We dont control their nucleur codes, they do.

Finally again with another attack of myself and my example. I merely set up a situation in which to put ourselves that was similiar to the israelis current one. I realize fully canada would never fire rockets into the US. But "we" as americans have a hard time getting over ourselves. It always has to be about us. This time its not about us. This U.N truce wont hold and you know it. Do you know how many truces they have had in the region in the last 2000 years ? So far they are 0-a whole hell of a lot. So unless "we" as americans and the rest of the world become proactive in the situation and help the middle east become more stable( and no i dont mean more treaties) then this could escalate to a point where no one can stop it.
And yes, if israel and tehran start exchanging blows the U.S will join in. Because bush wants a part of that.

Last thing-dts-you've always been a standup guy please dont continue to attack me. Attack my logic and my points but please dont attack me. It proves absolutely nothing and really hinders any logical debate. If you don't want logical debate then do let me know via pm and and I'll be happy to skip your posts from now on.

Skippy,
My apologies for reading you wrongly.
I'm not hostile to men...or anyone. I'm a man myself...and I love women.
As far as Israel is concerned, they have proven themselves to act in a terroristic manner. I just don't want their actions to draw the current administration into their failure...the current US one has enough of its own.
Finally, there is not much "logic" in what is currently going on. It's obvious to many.
These are dangerous times.
If there are people that can defend current policies, I'll express my opposition.
There are many posters here that disagree with me. That's fine.
In the past, there have been attacks against me, rather than the words I've stated, so I know the "feeling".

Again, I apologize for taking you the wrong way.

DTS