mr president

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

the answer to your post to Sorehoof! Either option you give in the answer is WRONG! This isn't some game(although politics is probably considered sport in D.C.) You appear to be OK with this.

?? Sorry, I am still missing your point, I guess. I'm not okay with what is happening now, because I consider the GOP to be doing massive political game-playing at the expense of the way the Senate is supposed to work.

Hoof made the point some think all legal measures (and fillibuster is certainly within the rules) should be used to oppose legislation someone doesn't want to pass.

To me, it is perfectly acceptable to work within the rules, within parlimentary procedure. The Senate is designed to pass legislation based upon a simple majority. Fillibuster is allowable and legal within the rules (although it's covered and changable by Senate rules)

What is happening currently, however, is unprecedented (and the Dems increased it's use in the last session, too, don't ignore that) in that fillibuster, and the requiring of a cloture vote of 60 to end discussion and have a vote on an issue, is the "new norm" for virtually every bill.

In other words, bills in the Senate should be able to pass by a 51-49 vote. That is how the Senate works (remember all states, even tiny ones, have the same number of votes as the big states, two).

The current Senate minority party, however, is forcing virtually all bills to have a 60-vote majority (the number of votes necessary to approve cloture and allow a bill to exit fillibuster and then be voted upon)

The minority party is, practically speaking, changing the Senate rules to require all legislation have 60 votes to pass.

What do you think about that?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I just did. Guess you didn't bother to read it.

That is proof? You mislead then give some flippant response. Maybe there is a job for you in the White House?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is proof? You mislead then give some flippant response. Maybe there is a job for you in the White House?

"Mislead"? No. I posted the section of the bill that contains what I said it did.
You said "prove it", and there it is.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you had watched any of the news <vbg>, the President came right out and said, "the system didn't work".

Wow! What an honest and insightful man he is!!! Really? The system didn't work. No kidding. You probably think he should get an award for this...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

?? Sorry, I am still missing your point, I guess. I'm not okay with what is happening now, because I consider the GOP to be doing massive political game-playing at the expense of the way the Senate is supposed to work.

Hoof made the point some think all legal measures (and fillibuster is certainly within the rules) should be used to oppose legislation someone doesn't want to pass.

To me, it is perfectly acceptable to work within the rules, within parlimentary procedure. The Senate is designed to pass legislation based upon a simple majority. Fillibuster is allowable and legal within the rules (although it's covered and changable by Senate rules)

What is happening currently, however, is unprecedented (and the Dems increased it's use in the last session, too, don't ignore that) in that fillibuster, and the requiring of a cloture vote of 60 to end discussion and have a vote on an issue, is the "new norm" for virtually every bill.

In other words, bills in the Senate should be able to pass by a 51-49 vote. That is how the Senate works (remember all states, even tiny ones, have the same number of votes as the big states, two).

The current Senate minority party, however, is forcing virtually all bills to have a 60-vote majority (the number of votes necessary to approve cloture and allow a bill to exit fillibuster and then be voted upon)

The minority party is, practically speaking, changing the Senate rules to require all legislation have 60 votes to pass.

What do you think about that?

So what you are saying is that the Dems are "letting" the GOP use tactics that are not legal? No of course not, they ARE legal and perfectly acceptable to both parties hence thier use.

So the Dems were content to sit on thier hands and just go along with whatever was presented when they were the minority party? Or did they use whatever tools at thier disposal to get thier point across?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

Ya gotta do what'cha gotta do. Anything the dems do is o.k. Evertything the repubs do isn't, even if it is the same thing?

I wouldn't mind if the GOP fillibustered healthcare reform (massive important game-changing bill). That's the point of fillibuster - to force debate, and not allow things to go through without debate (because the Senate only requires a simple majority to pass)

It's the fillibustering everything that is wearing! The fillbuster used to be rare, and has become common only recently. Yeah, the Dems increased it last congress to the point of abuse in some instances, but now the GOP has taken that to the max and is using it for virtually everything.

Our Senate should not be ground to a halt, legislatively. That's why Senators are elected, to reflect the will of the people as to what they want accomplished by the government.

The people elected the majority party, and expect them to pass what they said they would. Not to allow the minority party to rule the roost and control what legislation gets passed.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

?? Sorry, I am still missing your point, I guess. I'm not okay with what is happening now, because I consider the GOP to be doing massive political game-playing at the expense of the way the Senate is supposed to work.

Hoof made the point some think all legal measures (and fillibuster is certainly within the rules) should be used to oppose legislation someone doesn't want to pass.

To me, it is perfectly acceptable to work within the rules, within parlimentary procedure. The Senate is designed to pass legislation based upon a simple majority. Fillibuster is allowable and legal within the rules (although it's covered and changable by Senate rules)

What is happening currently, however, is unprecedented (and the Dems increased it's use in the last session, too, don't ignore that) in that fillibuster, and the requiring of a cloture vote of 60 to end discussion and have a vote on an issue, is the "new norm" for virtually every bill.

In other words, bills in the Senate should be able to pass by a 51-49 vote. That is how the Senate works (remember all states, even tiny ones, have the same number of votes as the big states, two).

The current Senate minority party, however, is forcing virtually all bills to have a 60-vote majority (the number of votes necessary to approve cloture and allow a bill to exit fillibuster and then be voted upon)

The minority party is, practically speaking, changing the Senate rules to require all legislation have 60 votes to pass.

What do you think about that?

The GOP is severely handicapped by both houses in Congress being held by Dems. The fillibuster threat is the last straw of defense against the "Unholy Trinity" and their clandestine plans.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I wouldn't mind if the GOP fillibustered healthcare reform (massive important game-changing bill). That's the point of fillibuster - to force debate, and not allow things to go through without debate (because the Senate only requires a simple majority to pass)

It's the fillibustering everything that is wearing! The fillbuster used to be rare, and has become common only recently. Yeah, the Dems increased it last congress to the point of abuse in some instances, but now the GOP has taken that to the max and is using it for virtually everything.

Our Senate should not be ground to a halt, legislatively. That's why Senators are elected, to reflect the will of the people as to what they want accomplished by the government.

The people elected the majority party, and expect them to pass what they said they would. Not to allow the minority party to rule the roost and control what legislation gets passed.

No that is why individual Senators are elected, not the Senate as a whole.

[Riot]

So what you are saying is that the Dems are "letting" the GOP use tactics that are not legal?

No, I said that fillibuster is legal, twice, within the quote you quoted.

So the Dems were content to sit on thier hands and just go along with whatever was presented when they were the minority party? Or did they use whatever tools at thier disposal to get thier point across?

The Dems used it, too. And the use has been increasing over the years. But when one looks at the number of fillibusters (requiring cloture, essentially thus requiring 60 votes for legislation to pass), this Senate has the most, ever.

Your next post will just say, "prove it", so here's a chart on fillibuster numbers requiring cloture
http://www.nolanchart.com/article7183.html

And here's the current Senate voting record
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...menu_111_1.htm

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No that is why individual Senators are elected, not the Senate as a whole.

But when the vast majority elected - like 60 out of 40 - got elected on the same platform, the public who elected them pretty much expects to get what they paid for. Especially when it only should take 51 to get it.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, I said that fillibuster is legal, twice, within the quote you quoted.



The Dems used it, too. And the use has been increasing over the years. But when one looks at the number of fillibusters (requiring cloture, essentially thus requiring 60 votes for legislation to pass), this Senate has the most, ever.

Your next post will just say, "prove it", so here's a chart on fillibuster numbers requiring cloture
http://www.nolanchart.com/article7183.html

And here's the current Senate voting record
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...menu_111_1.htm

waterboarding works..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, I said that fillibuster is legal, twice, within the quote you quoted.



The Dems used it, too. And the use has been increasing over the years. But when one looks at the number of fillibusters (requiring cloture, essentially thus requiring 60 votes for legislation to pass), this Senate has the most, ever.

Your next post will just say, "prove it", so here's a chart on fillibuster numbers requiring cloture
http://www.nolanchart.com/article7183.html

And here's the current Senate voting record
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...menu_111_1.htm

No proof needed, just interesting that you condemn perfectly acceptable practices

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

The GOP is severely handicapped by both houses in Congress being held by Dems. The fillibuster threat is the last straw of defense against the "Unholy Trinity" and their clandestine plans.

Yeah, those dang citizens, electing who they wanted to the Senate and Congress, with the resultant threat of passing agendas the public obviously wanted passed!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

But when the vast majority elected - like 60 out of 40 - got elected on the same platform, the public who elected them pretty much expects to get what they paid for. Especially when it only should take 51 to get it.

You are making the assumption that they were elected on the same platform which because they arent all elected in the same election cycle isnt necessarily true. Not to mention that much of thier elected platform may no longer be relevant in lieu of recent events. Globally you can make your arguement and not be wrong but at the same time not be completely correct either.

[Danzig]

i'd imagine the filibustering wasn't an issue when the republicans held control. oh, but that's different...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, those dang citizens, electing who they wanted to the Senate and Congress, with the resultant threat of passing agendas the public obviously wanted passed!

Here you make the assumption that what is passed is what was promised.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

waterboarding works..

Please, most Senators are old. Just running water in the sink would probably induce painful prostate awareness.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, those dang citizens, electing who they wanted to the Senate and Congress, with the resultant threat of passing agendas the public obviously wanted passed!

Bullcrap! The public voted for a dream, and reaped this nightmare of an adminstration and its' resulting agendas. The heads of Senate and House disdain and crush the peoples will as they try to ramrod legislation without proper review and discussion.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Here you make the assumption that what is passed is what was promised.

That is a good point. We sure need to get a public option back in the healthcare bill.

[SOREHOOF]

I'll be back.