Obama: Arizona law securing borders is "misguided"

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

ironically that's how many of them feel about the bible. Never thought the word bible would be interchangable with 'real world' on this board. A sort of 'Festivus' miracle.

....i needed a "festivus miricle " with my pick 4 yesterday

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Danzig

What am I missing about this law? It is against the law to be here illegally, right? If a policeman pulls you over and suspects you're drunk, he acts accordingly. Nervous? Maybe he suspects drugs or a gun. So he requests a search. You can refuse any of those. Again, he will act accordingly. But there's a problem if he attempts to ascertain if you're breaking an immigration law? Why?

just moving this forward. i didn't get an answer from anyone on why the feds, mexico, or anyone else should be up in arms about this law. it wasn't a rhetorical question-i really want to know why this is a bad law, or misinformed, etc.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

just moving this forward. i didn't get an answer from anyone on why the feds, mexico, or anyone else should be up in arms about this law. it wasn't a rhetorical question-i really want to know why this is a bad law, or misinformed, etc.

How about this: Your state can make it state law that it's a crime to not pay your federal income taxes. The wording can duplicate federal law. They can include a provision allowing them (the state) to look at and review your federal income tax return at their discretion, and for them to notify the IRS if the state workers thought your federal return wasn't accurate. Do you think that is constitutional?

The federal government controls immigration, not states. Our governmental system says a state doesn't have the right to intrude in federal law.

A example would be desegregation and the integration of schools. Federal law supercedes state law. And the feds will send in the troops to prove it (some states apparently didn't learn that from the Civil War)

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Danzig

just moving this forward. i didn't get an answer from anyone on why the feds, mexico, or anyone else should be up in arms about this law. it wasn't a rhetorical question-i really want to know why this is a bad law, or misinformed, etc.

What a mess. Anyone who agrees with the State of Arizona is going to be called a racist, and the politicians in Washington are squirming in their seats and loosening their tie for fear of messing with Hispanic votes.

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Rep...s-Must-Do-More

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

What a mess. Anyone who agrees with the State of Arizona is going to be called a racist, and the politicians in Washington are squirming in their seats and loosening their tie for fear of messing with Hispanic votes.

Too bad John McCain hasn't done anything about immigration in the past 28 years he's been a politician.

Too bad Arizona didn't do anything with it's "illegal to hire an illegal" law they passed previously.

Racist? I doubt many non-brown people who don't have a drivers license when requested will be asked to produce proof of American citizenship or legal visa, etc. A third of Arizona is brown people, btw.

It's unfortunately a bit parallel to Nazi Germany, however. American citizens having to carry and produce their "papers" upon demand or "suspicion"? Specific provisions to anonymously report someone you suspect of harboring or helping or hiring illegals? Bet the soup kitchens for the homeless will love that one.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Riot

Too bad John McCain hasn't done anything about immigration in the past 28 years he's been a politician.

Too bad Arizona didn't do anything with it's "illegal to hire an illegal" law they passed previously.

Racist? I doubt many non-brown people who don't have a drivers license when requested will be asked to produce proof of American citizenship or legal visa, etc. A third of Arizona is brown people, btw.

It's unfortunately a bit parallel to Nazi Germany, however. American citizens having to carry and produce their "papers" upon demand or "suspicion"? Specific provisions to anonymously report someone you suspect of harboring or helping or hiring illegals? Bet the soup kitchens for the homeless will love that one.

And your solution to the ever mounting problem is?

This is not a Democrat or Republican problem. It's been going on since 1986 through Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and now Obama. Washington, for some reason, does not want to enforce the Constitution. It has to be about votes.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

How about this: Your state can make it state law that it's a crime to not pay your federal income taxes. The wording can duplicate federal law. They can include a provision allowing them (the state) to look at and review your federal income tax return at their discretion, and for them to notify the IRS if the state workers thought your federal return wasn't accurate. Do you think that is constitutional?

The federal government controls immigration, not states. Our governmental system says a state doesn't have the right to intrude in federal law.

A example would be desegregation and the integration of schools. Federal law supercedes state law. And the feds will send in the troops to prove it (some states apparently didn't learn that from the Civil War)

not much of an analogy, since paying federal taxes isn't illegal, but being an illegal immigrant is just that. as for the feds being in charge, if the fibbies are looking for someone on their most wanted list, and a sherriff arrests him, they don't have a problem with that. az didn't change any laws, they just said if a cop has a suspicion, he is to question-which is the same thing they do if they suspect drunkenness, drug use, etc.

[2Hot4TV]

I want to know WHO IS GOING TO MOW MY LAWN?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

And your solution to the ever mounting problem is?

This is not a Democrat or Republican problem. It's been going on since 1986 through Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and now Obama. Washington, for some reason, does not want to enforce the Constitution. It has to be about votes.

Regarding immigration reform, which has little to do with Presidents and much to do with Congress and the Senate, I'll continue to support aggressive immigration reform. You are right, they have avoided this subject at all costs the past 20 years.

Regarding Presidents, I voted for Obama, and I guarantee I'll vote for him again in 2012.

[Riot]

not much of an analogy, since paying federal taxes isn't illegal, but being an illegal immigrant is just that.

The analogy was to NOT paying your federal taxes, or the "suspicion" by state officials that your federal taxes might not be accurate.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

I want to know WHO IS GOING TO MOW MY LAWN?

You'll just have to continue to hire those illegal, outstayed-their-student-or-work-visa'd immigrants: the Irish, the Dutch and the German.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Riot

Regarding immigration reform, which has little to do with Presidents and much to do with Congress and the Senate, I'll continue to support aggressive immigration reform. You are right, they have avoided this subject at all costs the past 20 years.

Regarding Presidents, I voted for Obama, and I guarantee I'll vote for him again in 2012.

You'll "continue to support aggressive immigration reform."? What aggressive reform has there been?

I specifically said Washington has done nothing - just naming the administrations since 1986, but as Harry Truman wisely said, "The buck stops here."

This is a 34-page report which some of you may or may not want to read in its entirety, but I urge you to read the chart on page 4 entitled
State-by-State Changes in Illegal Immigrant Populations

http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2009/pdf/sr0066.pdf

It is a comparison - state by state - of the increase in undocumented alien population in 1980 as compared to 2008.

If those numbers don't astound and concern you, well.... I guess it's okay to just open up the floodgates, let anyone into the country that wants in, and just forget about it.

Washington is not going to do a thing about this until they are forced. I applaud Arizona for striking the first bell. Other states will soon follow.

This IS the Arizona law -

"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state...where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

It may be ruled unconstitutional, but it will take time and it just might get those D.C. suits and skirts off their dead butts and start doing something about it because they stand to lose more votes by angry citizens than they can expect to gain by even entertaining the thought of giving amnesty to illegal aliens. A promise made in 1986 that there would not be another amnesty.

I'd say some of those border states could say, "taxation without representation".

[Riot]

You'll "continue to support aggressive immigration reform."? What aggressive reform has there been?

Let's see. You said, "It has to be about votes." I responded by saying, "I'll continue to support aggressive immigration reform." My very next sentence was, "You are right, they have avoided this subject at all costs the past 20 years."

So I don't understand why you are asking me what "aggressive reform" there has been, as I just said there hasn't been any?

This IS the Arizona law -

"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state...where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

No, that is NOT the entire law. You are leaving out some quite significant provisions.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Riot

Let's see. You said, "It has to be about votes." I responded by saying, "I'll continue to support aggressive immigration reform." My very next sentence was, "You are right, they have avoided this subject at all costs the past 20 years."

So I don't understand why you are asking me what "aggressive reform" there has been, as I just said there hasn't been any?



No, that is NOT the entire law. You are leaving out some quite significant provisions.

You can't "continue" to support something that has never existed. Symantics - I know, but say what you mean.

And, here's the text of the entire Arizona law:

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....vernor.doc.htm

[Nascar1966]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

And your solution to the ever mounting problem is?

This is not a Democrat or Republican problem. It's been going on since 1986 through Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and now Obama. Washington, for some reason, does not want to enforce the Constitution. It has to be about votes.

Of course its about the votes. What else could it be. This has been an ongoing problem for years now. Arizona has said the hell with whoever is in the White House and decided to take matters into thier own hands. Its my hope that Texas isnt far behind in dealing with these taxpayers burden. I hope the sheriff that said he is not going to enforce this law gets a swift kick in the @ss out of office.

[Princess Doreen]

I think this would be a very good immigration policy for the USA to adopt.

___________ has a single, streamlined law that ensures that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

in the country legally;
have the means to sustain themselves economically;
not destined to be burdens on society;
of economic and social benefit to society;
of good character and have no criminal records; and
contributors to the general well-being of the nation.

The law also ensures that:

immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;
foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;
foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;
foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;
foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;
those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.

Let's look at _____________ main immigration law.

______________ welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to ______________ society:

Foreigners are admitted into _________ "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)

Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken ___________ laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)
_______________ authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)

Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)

Foreigners who are deported from ____________ and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)

Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in _____________ -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under ________________law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

"A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand ______ will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)

Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from __________ instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)

Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

_______________ who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

A _______________ who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into ____________ will be fined. (Article 132)

Anyone want to take a guess as to what country has adopted this policy?
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
Give up?
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
It's Mexico.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Nascar1966

Of course its about the votes. What else could it be. This has been an ongoing problem for years now. Arizona has said the hell with whoever is in the White House and decided to take matters into thier own hands. Its my hope that Texas isnt far behind in dealing with these taxpayers burden. I hope the sheriff that said he is not going to enforce this law gets a swift kick in the @ss out of office.

And I hope the Tea Baggers, those folks who call themselves strict and faithful Constitutionalists, who are against government infringement upon our rights as individuals, and who support the Fourth Amendment, fight this tooth and nail.

Seems Arizona doesn't need a law to harass non-white Americans

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...irth-certifica

[Riot]

I think this would be a very good immigration policy for the USA to adopt.

Sorry. No National Identification Cards with Registry to be carried on my person at all times for me. I don't believe in that amount of government intrusion and control over my life.

You might read your own country's immigration laws. They are pretty inclusive. The problem isn't the law, it's enforcement. Of course, that costs federal dollars. So you support an increase in the budget, and in the budget deficit, to address this, right?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Riot

And I hope the Tea Baggers, those folks who call themselves strict and faithful Constitutionalists, who are against government infringement upon our rights as individuals, and who support the Fourth Amendment, fight this tooth and nail.

Seems Arizona doesn't need a law to harass non-white Americans

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...irth-certifica

I don't know about anyone else, but I would be offended if anyone called me this.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I don't know about anyone else, but I would be offended if anyone called me this.

When they themselves call themselves Tea Baggers, what should I call them?