Spectacular Bid

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Looking at the 70's the best I could - I have to think for sure he's the top rated horse since 1970.

He had that sprinter/miler pedigree and was basically a machine between the distances of 7 furlongs to 10 furlongs.




A perfect 24-for-24 record at 15 different tracks - 23 of the 24 wins coming by 1.5 lengths or more. 14 Grade 1 wins - a slew of track records set - a great champion at ages 2, 3, and 4 who ran in all regions.

Certainly faced a lot of quality competition in all regions. A consistantly great speed figure horse as well. He was faster than Affirmed and Seattle Slew on Ragozin at both 3yo seasons VS 3yo seasons and 4yo seasons VS 4yo seasons. Secretariat was faster than the Bid in his three triple crown wins vs Bid's 3 triple crown races .. but overall .. he was as fast and a lot more consistant than "Big Red" at age 3 .. and unlike Secretariat - he actually came back for a 4-year-old season - improved and dominated.

As we all know - that type of progression from age 3 to age 4 doesn't always happen.

Incredible, thanks for posting. It's a very close determination between him and Sec for best of all time to me. Really depends on how you weigh the TC win versus a 4yo season.

I'd love to know who was favored over him in the Champagne off that ridiculous Atlantic City win.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Secretariat's win in the first Marlboro Cup was one of his best races as well. The final time was a record and they timed one more furlong to get him at 10fs in 1:57 and 4/5.

I was there that day. What a horse he was.

I can still remember when he showed up in the Champagne. Those were the days before speed figures were prevalent, and he showed up off that insane win at Atlantic City in the World's Playground, but was meeting General Assembly. I was shocked when he paid as little as 2:1, but in retrospect, I bet he had overwhelming Sheet numbers.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

Incredible, thanks for posting. It's a very close determination between him and Sec for best of all time to me. Really depends on how you weigh the TC win versus a 4yo season.

I'd love to know who was favored over him in the Champagne off that ridiculous Atlantic City win.

That's funny.....I hadn't gotten to your post when I wrote mine. General Assembly was pretty strong at that point....I imagine he was favored ( though for some reason I feel like he might have been coming off a close loss to Tim the Tiger probably in the Cowden ).

Once again....these horses all ran before horses bounced.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think if you rated the most outstanding Saratoga 3-year-old seasons of all time - General Assembley would be right up there.




He went 7fs in 1:21 flat in his first start at the meet as a 3yo - he won the Travers by 15 lengths over an off track in his other start that meet. The Beyer was 134 for that race according to Beyer's book 'The Winning Horseplayer'

A horse named Smarten - who entered the Travers on a six race win streak (all at the stakes level) was 2nd.



The 3rd place finisher in that Travers was Private Account - beaten a mere 26 lengths.



Private Account was a multiple Grade 1 winner as a race horse - but was better as a sire. He's the sire of the legendary Personal Ensign as well as the great Inside Information.

Champion filly Davona Dale was 4th beaten 28.75 lengths in the field of 7.


General Assembly only ran twice more after that - he was drubbed by The Bid and than cut back to win the Vosburgh in his final start. He faced Spectacular Bid six times .. and he lost all 6 matchups - never once getting closer than 2.75 lengths. He was 2nd in the Kentucky Derby. The Travers certainly would have been the day for him. He still holds the track record for 10 furlongs at Saratoga today.

He was a monster...but Bid was so f'n good that he made General Assembly seem like nothing. It's amazing what a strong hand Leroy Jolley had in those days.

Davona Dale was a week off losing the Alabama to It's in the Air ( Veitch just couldn't beat Laz Barrera...though she got revenge in the Ballerina the following year ). I believe Smarten compiled his winning streak shipping around the country for softer spots.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

As mentioned earlier - it was 12 furlongs.

It was also a 3-year-old Spectacular Bid VS a 4-year-old Affirmed.

Len Ragozin wrote a book many years ago called 'The Odds Must Be Crazy' - it was a very good read - but he comes across as a braggart of epic proportions. I'm talking multiple 100/1 shots winners - scoring huge on an imposter horse at 57/1 in a famous betting coup - and even making a $51,000 boxing bet against his idol Muhammed Ali in the fight Holmes destroyed him.

Anyway, he writes about proposing a deal with Affirmed's owner for a $50,000 bet between the two - double booking - with Ragozin taking The Bid. He mentioned that Spectacular Bid was actually consistently faster as a 3yo than Affirmed was as a 4yo...and Affirmed was obviously one of the great 4yo's of all-time.

Spectacular Bid's dam was a Northern Cal sprinter - and he was shockingly beat at 12fs in the Belmont by horses he owned. If you watch the race with Affirmed - it was a total tactical defeat and Bid really ran the better of the two. Affirmed was allowed unpressed on the lead through a 25 flat first quarter. Basically, the trainer and jockey of the Bid were more worried about him getting the distance than they were about Affirmed.

Pincay rode a brilliant race and floated the Bid out on both turns .. he actually seemed to cross into his path turning for home..and the Bid had to dive inside of Affirmed for the stretch run despite being floated wider both turns .. he made up some ground through the stretch but came up less than a length short.

Secretariat and Affirmed both suffered defeats to older horses at age 3 on two occasions each. Seattle Slew put in a non-effort in his only start after the triple crown when drubbed out West in the Swaps. A great 4-year-old should be able to beat a great 3-year-old the majority of the time.

it was also the bid's final defeat. he was an amazing, awesome, truly great horse who belongs on any top ten list. it's because of horses like him that i shake my head when people say the same about zenyatta. they don't know exactly what they're saying when they make comments like that. he ended one of the greatest decades in the sport, and racing hasn't been the same since he left the scene.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

The "walkover"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9JYygqNfgE

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was a monster...but Bid was so f'n good that he made General Assembly seem like nothing. It's amazing what a strong hand Leroy Jolley had in those days.

Davona Dale was a week off losing the Alabama to It's in the Air ( Veitch just couldn't beat Laz Barrera...though she got revenge in the Ballerina the following year ). I believe Smarten compiled his winning streak shipping around the country for softer spots.

general assembly was my favorite and my pick to win the derby. i wasn't happy when the bid defeated him in the derby, but i came to respect that horse. he was one of the best ever, if not the best.

[Indian Charlie]

Zenyatta and Blame, the Prequel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZFr6N2lNY4

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Zenyatta and Blame, the Prequel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZFr6N2lNY4

Why was Life's Hope entered if he had the same running style as Affirmed?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Why was Life's Hope entered if he had the same running style as Affirmed?

He didn't. Affirmed's saddle slipped.

Watch the Marlboro.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by philcski

Incredible, thanks for posting. It's a very close determination between him and Sec for best of all time to me. Really depends on how you weigh the TC win versus a 4yo season.

I'd love to know who was favored over him in the Champagne off that ridiculous Atlantic City win.

I believe the favorite was Genral Assembly with Tim The Tiger second choice

[slotdirt]

Smarten was a very underrated race horse, and turned out to be a pretty fantastic sire.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

That's funny.....I hadn't gotten to your post when I wrote mine. General Assembly was pretty strong at that point....I imagine he was favored ( though for some reason I feel like he might have been coming off a close loss to Tim the Tiger probably in the Cowden ).

Once again....these horses all ran before horses bounced.

Until my first trip to the Spa for A & A's Travers, I had little interest in racing. I loved Saratoga so much I returned the next weekend for the Hopeful. General Assembly won. I think Tim was second and Fuzzbuster third. BTW, you are right about the Cowdin. GA went off at 1/10. With my one month of experience in horse racing, I bet $100 to win on GA. I credit him with teaching me an early lesson about horses that pay a dime on the dollar. They DO lose. In the Champagne, I think GA was 1/2 to Bid's 2.40/1.

[Thunder Gulch]

I have always thought he was top 5. Traveling all over and setting record after record at different distances, much of the time under Ronnie Franklin. WOW

[tiggerv]

Drugs - I know you made the cutoff 1970, but do you have PPs for Dr. Fager? It was before my time, but I always thought that Dr. Fager had the best 4yo season ever in 1968.

[blackthroatedwind]

General Assembly was the 7:5 favorite in the Champagne.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by tiggerv

Drugs - I know you made the cutoff 1970, but do you have PPs for Dr. Fager? It was before my time, but I always thought that Dr. Fager had the best 4yo season ever in 1968.

I have PP's for horses like Dr. Fager, Citation and Native Dancer - but I don't have any way to gauge horses like that. I don't have access to chart books or results charts from that time - have no idea what their Ragozin figures look like - what their Beyers might look like - I don't have PP's of the competition they faced... so I feel totally in the dark about those horses.

I'm sure Dr. Fager was an all-time great - but it gets tricky to even guess without the aid of a lot of stuff.

Look at the Seattle Slew defeat to Exceller above - after watching that performance you'd think Seattle Slew was the greatest. However, I happen to think Seattle Slew might have only been the 5th or 6th best 3-year-old of the 70's. I've seen a lot of stuff that supports that belief.

He did however run some truly awesome races at age 4...albeit his 4yo season is hardly the stuff of legend in terms of accomplishment... unlike his 2yo and 3yo season.

[slotdirt]

Fifth or sixth best 3yo - not disagreeing or agreeing, just curious who would be in that top five or six?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I have PP's for horses like Dr. Fager, Citation and Native Dancer - but I don't have any way to gauge horses like that. I don't have access to chart books or results charts from that time - have no idea what their Ragozin figures look like - what their Beyers might look like - I don't have PP's of the competition they faced... so I feel totally in the dark about those horses.

I'm sure Dr. Fager was an all-time great - but it gets tricky to even guess without the aid of a lot of stuff.

Look at the Seattle Slew defeat to Exceller above - after watching that performance you'd think Seattle Slew was the greatest. However, I happen to think Seattle Slew might have only been the 5th or 6th best 3-year-old of the 70's. I've seen a lot of stuff that supports that belief.

He did however run some truly awesome races at age 4...albeit his 4yo season is hardly the stuff of legend in terms of accomplishment... unlike his 2yo and 3yo season.

Man, if you know who in NJ knew you said that, he'd hunt your ass down so fast!

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

I believe the favorite was Genral Assembly with Tim The Tiger second choice

And if I'm not mistaken, Cordero replace Darrel McHargue on General Assembly.