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#41
09-03-2006, 01:57 AM
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Last edited by SCUDSBROTHER : 09-03-2006 at 09:06 AM. 
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#42
09-03-2006, 02:11 AM
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Nothing like a little exageration and chest thumping about how you alone knew that BD was a fraud and EVERYBODY in the racing world was duped. Joel you act as if this horse was 1-10 odds in the derby. What was he? 7-8 to one? To say that everyone in the racing world was ready to lay the Roses oner his withers, shouldn't he at have been the favorite in the derby? Hell, i'm not close to the connections like you and i had very big doubts about his derby prospects, as did many others. I'd refer to this type of situation as discovering an underlay, not as a fraud and it does not mean that the horse is not legitimate. (Just noticed i used three "nots" in that last sentence. Well you know what i mean!) Last edited by ArlJim78 : 09-03-2006 at 02:18 AM.
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#43
09-03-2006, 02:26 AM
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Namely that Brother Derek is a fraud, and that you never liked him. How in gods name is that not negative?
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#44
09-03-2006, 07:19 AM
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Well guys, looks as if "little Lord Fauntleroy" is mad beacuse he can't fool anyone into believing he actually knows what hes talking about anymore.
Little Lord and daddy will never own a grade one winner like Wonder Lady Anne L. And Little Lord Fauntleroy will forever have his nosed pressed up against the big shot window, slobbering over shiekhs an singing their praises, always hoping someday that he could actually accomplish something within the game, instead of just talking about it. But I think the odds of that are indeed slim. Fraud is what I would label someone who can't ever handicap a race or predict a winner BEFORE it occurs. Fraud is someone who bashes guys like pletcher while acting indignant. A fraud a is a guy who bashes grade one winning horses while having never actually accomplished anything within the game whatsoever. Someone wake me up when this "horse racing analyst" actually accomplishes something within the game, like Brother Derek's connections have.
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#45
09-03-2006, 07:28 AM
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By the way, anyone who is actually IN THIS GAME, knows that you never bash another horse or connections who has actually accomplished anything in this game. Its so very hard to ever get a grade one win, and they can't take em away.
In the Gold may have fallen off form this year, shes in a money allowance today. But last year she was grade one placed in some nice races and then won the Grade One Gazelle. Shes worth millions as a broodmare(going rate right now, rock bottom appraisal on grade one winning mares is 2.5 mill) and gave her owner breeder Live Oak a huge thrill. There isn't any difference. Shes not what she was, but you can't take away what shes accomplished. Of coure Little Lord doesn't know anything about accomplishment, only flapping his gums. And thats what he will forever be doing, writing about the accomplishemnts of other people, after the race is over with. Way to disprespect the owner and trainer of a grade one winner Joel, especially since the ****ing guys trains froom a wheelchair. You have zero class, zilch, none at this time.
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#46
09-03-2006, 07:35 AM
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I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.
Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans
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#47
09-03-2006, 07:55 AM
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"Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them...." It reminds me of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's remark on defining pornography: "I know it when I see it." That may be the most laughed about Supreme Court quote in history, but CR is trying to outdo him. He can tell "fraudness" when he sees it. --Dunbar
__________________
Curlin and Hard Spun finish 1,2 in the 2007 BC Classic, demonstrating how competing in all three Triple Crown races ruins a horse for the rest of the year...see avatar photo from REUTERS/Lucas Jackson
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#48
09-03-2006, 07:56 AM
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And, one does reap what one sows. Horses are not "frauds." They may disappoint, not run well, be hurt or may be declining. However, anyone who puts themselves out as an "expert" certainly knows better than to apply such a curious cognomen such as "fraud" to an animal. I wish everyone well, but what happens a year later when a chance to interview the owner and trainer of a fraudulent horse arises? What happens when one gets sent to interview Dutrow after a big win? I suppose if you put yourself out as an "connected insider," a "professional analyst," and a "industry compensated professional," it should come as no surprise that when you call horses frauds, claim several months later to have earned five figures plus on a race or question the integrity of top trainers, you will be criticized.
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#49
09-03-2006, 08:00 AM
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--Dunbar
__________________
Curlin and Hard Spun finish 1,2 in the 2007 BC Classic, demonstrating how competing in all three Triple Crown races ruins a horse for the rest of the year...see avatar photo from REUTERS/Lucas Jackson
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#50
09-03-2006, 08:25 AM
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I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.
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#51
09-03-2006, 08:42 AM
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You people are ridiculous. He never attacked anyone or even the horse. He was just saying the horse is overrated, or a fraud.
It is true, Brother Derek is overrated. He has done nothing except beat mediocre horses. Those two horses he beat over and over are also frauds. The California horses were way overhyped. For the record, I don't know Cunningham, but he made the post of the year on this site. He was the one who said the sheikhs would take over racing in america this year, and he was 100% correct. They own american racing. I do love the hypocrisy from Oracle saying he would never bash anyone in the game and then bashing Cunningham. Only an idiot can't see the hypocrisy there. I don't see anyone bashing Oracle for his ridiculous predictions on Flower Alley or his ridiculous comments about the top rider in the country G. Gomez or his ridiculous comments about Songster and Albertrani. Those were much more ridiculous than calling a horse a fraud. The fact is Cunningham is correct and Oracle was wrong on all of the above mentioned. Last edited by Nostradamus : 09-03-2006 at 08:44 AM.
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#52
09-03-2006, 08:44 AM
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Lava Man a fraud? I cant wait for the BC, I really cant.
SO many on here knock this horse for staying home and just making money, throwing one overhyped east coast handicap horse out there after another. Sun King cant get up yet again, surprise surprise. Flower Alley all done. Looks like its down to Invasor and Bernardinin. Lava Man, a fraud? LOL! If hes a fraud what are the horses that ran in the Woodward yesterday?
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#53
09-03-2006, 09:51 AM
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Steve is not running a pre-school he's running a website.
__________________
 Seek respect, not attention.
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#54
09-03-2006, 09:52 AM
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Nostra,
Flower Alley is not a fraud, and you will note that after his last race I completely backed off of backing him as a possible HOY. The explanation I received after his loss was pretty much confirmed yesterday. I was told by someone who I trust that he had no injury, that he simply had lost his mental desire to put out or perform. It happens more often than you think, most often with fillies or mares. Lady's Secret even had this occur at the end of her career, bolting on a turn in an allowance type race and refusing to run. Storm Flag Flying was another, after her incedible BC performance she had the potential to become one of the all the time greats in many people's minds(myself included). When she returned at age three they just couldnt get her to really try. She did win a grade one up here at age 4, accomplished after stalking one of the most bizzare speed duels in history and barely getting up in a last 1/4 in :27(or thereabouts). We don't know the story with Brother Derek yet. Was he injured? Did something go awry? Or is he just another on a long list of three year olds who were mentally or physically fried(or both) because of the grueling triple crown route? He was never my favorite horse. I always said I admired his talent but that I thought he had no shot in the Derby. I didn't jump on this thread to jump ugly on Joel just because he started it. Had anyone else started it I would have said the same thing to them. I bash trainers all the time, probably always will. But I tend to appreciate the accomplishments of animals who win a grade one race. Its so hard you just can't believe it. Lansdon told me while he was up here, that its quite conceivable(and likely) that although he is young, that he may never have another grade one winner. He said just getting to a grade one is so very hard. One of the things I like about him is his sense of honesty. he told his wife last year while standing in the winner's circle at the Champgane to enjoy this, because it won't happen again(winning two grade ones in a row with the same horse). If the thread title had been "Brother Derek not as good as thought earlier", or Hendriks did a lousy job with the horse for this race, I would probably have agreed. But fraud is an awful harsh word for a horse who accomplished and did as much as he did this year. I defended Lawyer Ron the same way earlier this year, even though I thought he had zero shot in the Derby. You have to appreciate a horse who goes out there and does the things that he did.
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#55
09-03-2006, 09:54 AM
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#56
09-03-2006, 09:55 AM
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__________________
Seek respect, not attention.
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#57
09-03-2006, 10:02 AM
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Yes, Joel and I get in each others faces a lot on here. But like the other night when I saw a thread title and jumped on DaHoss(who I later apologized to) I didn't even note the author and leaped into a response. I did the same thing here, whether you think so or not. Pais, gander starts threads like this all the time, you can ask him, and I have been much rougher on him. And thats a guy I have known and been friends with for over 20 years. Don't have too many friends in this world that I have known longer than gander. But when he starts one of his negativity threads I'm the first one to jump up and down and scream thats stupid. Joel then turned it personal by bashing a grade one winner I bought. Thats fine. When he is associated with a grade one winner, he will find that I won't bash the horse, regardless of what I think of him. You, working with horses, ought to appreciate how tough it is for any horse to win a grade one. How many did you take care of, or feed, or brush, before you touched the great henny Hughes? My guess is one HELL of a lot of them. Brother Derek is a grade one winner(duel) and showed a lot of talent and desire and speed earlier this year. he may not be as good as he was advertised or that the hype spouted about him deserved, he may now be past his prime already, but calling him a fraud off one layoff race that we don't know the details of is certainly foolish in my opinion.
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#58
09-03-2006, 10:09 AM
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Oracle is right, he has jumped on many of my posts, some for good reasons and maybe some for just his own opinions which I strongly disagree with. But an hour later when we see each other the last thing we do is argue about what was said on the internet.
I have been very guilty for letting my personal bets affect what I have written on here about certain horses (not lately though). If you can find a fault with Lava Man, you can find a fault with everything. Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Albert Pujols, Derek Jeter, etc.
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#59
09-03-2006, 10:10 AM
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I don't think it is appropriate to bash horses for any reason because they are never the one's responsible for the hype surrounding them (brother Derek) nor are they responsible when they running out of their ability level (ex. Funny Cide)--Yup I groomed a buch of nags in addition to Henny... But I also don't really think it's useful to bash a trainer when his horse throws a bad race--pre-race comments are not always true, but on the other hand a horse can fool his trainer too and then the trainer is left with egg on his face... Last week a very famous trainer said to me...'I don't understand it I've got all the favorites and can't win a f*cking race' Obviously that is not going to be printed in the DRF....
__________________
Seek respect, not attention.
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#60
09-03-2006, 10:19 AM
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 a shame that bro derek takes so much heat for his return...he's probably won more $ this year, certainly more races, than the highly esteemed flower alley, among others....not that it matters! i think bashing of some horses on here has far more to do with geographic location and pedigree than actual effort... lava man for being a westerner, and by world famous slew city slew and then invasor, altho based on the east coast, most wouldn't recognize a horse in his bloodlines, and he came from (gasp) south america. no blueblood there either. tis a shame, the horses have no clue where they are, or where they came from. it'd be nice if a horse got some props for winning, instead of getting bashed almost immediately because he's not legit...or first race back, a horse is rank, oh he must be a fraud. yeah, tell that to the owners accountant! every horse loses, EVERY horse. what, two horses have retired as undefeated champs in the last century and a half...i guess every other horse out there is a fraud, since every other horse has a loss--or no doubt will.
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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