Divisional best by decade since 1900

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Count Fleet's route races at age 2 were absolutely superior performances. I don't hold his early season sprints that much against him - a field of 14 and field of 16 for babies going 5f and 5.5f - the chart indicated he had trouble in both races and he finished 2nd.

I didn't hold Bernardini's debut against him that much - heck, for an A. P. Indy first-time-starter going 6f - it sure wasn't bad. I don't think he faced any serious competition at all - to say the least - until the Breeders Cup Classic ... which he would have certainly won with a competent ride .. and I say that as someone who bet against him in that race. I think Tiznow was the best 3yo of that decade. However, I held the fact that he missed the triple crown series and pretty much the entire first half of the season against him... more than I held Smarty Jones missing the 2nd half of the season against him. As we know, the first half of the season is made to be all about the 3yo division.

count fleet had the lengths won by record in the belmont til secretariats smasher. 25 lengths on the field that day. too bad he never raced again.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Thanks for posting that Drugs. So if my ciphering is correct, here's what I get. Out of those seven horses (Candy Ride, Congaree, Medaglia d'Oro, Milwaukee Brew, Mineshaft, Perfect Drift, Pleasantly Perfect), here's the total number of matchups against the others in that group:

Congaree-8 (in four races, one win)
(Pleasantly Perfect 3x, Milwaukee Brew 2x, Perfect Drift 2x, MDO 1x)

Pleasantly Perfect-7 (in three races, one win)
(Congaree 3x, Milwaukee Brew 2x, MDO 1x, Perfect Drift 1x)

Milwaukee Brew-6 (in three races, one win)
(Congaree 2x, Pleasantly Perfect 2x, Candy Ride 1x, MDO 1x)

Medaglia d'Oro-5 (in two races, no wins)
(Candy Ride, Milwaukee Brew, Pleasantly Perfect, Congaree, Perfect Drift 1x each)

Perfect Drift-5 (in three races, two wins)
(Congaree 2x, MDO 1x, Pleasantly Perfect 1x, Mineshaft 1x)

Candy Ride-2 (in one race, one win)
(MDO, Milwaukee Brew 1x each)

Mineshaft-1 (in one race, no wins)
(Perfect Drift 1x)
___________________

So with the exception of Candy Ride and Mineshaft, each of those other five faced another of the top seven in multiple races. It's pretty easy to see why I said they were facing each other consistently and beating each other. It's not unlike 1997 when Will's Way, Skip Away, and Formal Gold kept facing each other and beating each other up and Favorite Trick snuck in and won HOY. Again, you can't fault a horse for who shows up to face them, especially when they are running in the right races as Mineshaft was. But you also can't excape the reality of the fact that Mineshaft got off easy that year in comparison to what the others were facing on a regular basis.

he got off easy? i disagree. i thought he ran a good campaign (especially when you consider other hoy campaigns that have been run the last few years-i think mineshaft started almost as many times in that one year as GZ did in his entire career) and was deserving of hoy. was he the best since bid as has been suggested by another poster here? hell no. if he didn't deserve hoy, who did that year?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But you also can't excape the reality of the fact that Mineshaft got off easy that year in comparison to what the others were facing on a regular basis.

He would have got off a whole lot easier in 2009 ... here are the 3 finalists...

http://www1.drf.com/eclipse/2009/fin...older_male.pdf

In 2008 - Albertus Maximus and Go Between both got votes for champion older male.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Danzig

he got off easy? i disagree. i thought he ran a good campaign (especially when you consider other hoy campaigns that have been run the last few years-i think mineshaft started almost as many times in that one year as GZ did in his entire career) and was deserving of hoy. was he the best since bid as has been suggested by another poster here? hell no. if he didn't deserve hoy, who did that year?

He isn't saying he got off easy in the sense that he purposely took on a light campaign. I think he is saying that although he mapped out a schedule of tough races, all of those races came out really light that year and he got off without having to run against all but one of the best horses.

Tough to make a compelling case as a more deserving HOY that year but I do agree with KG that olmodavor and hold that tiger are the best that mineshaft beat. That's pretty weak all things considered.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

He isn't saying he got off easy in the sense that he purposely took on a light campaign. I think he is saying that although he mapped out a schedule of tough races, all of those races came out really light that year and he got off without having to run against all but one of the best horses.

Tough to make a compelling case as a more deserving HOY that year but I do agree with KG that olmodavor and hold that tiger are the best that mineshaft beat. That's pretty weak all things considered.

which is why i don't think he belongs on any 'all time' list. he was no monster imo. but i don't have any qualms about the schedule he ran, especially compared to some other hoy winners we've had in the last few years. gz with four starts, zenyatta last year with nary an open win, blame was a candidate with, what, five wins in six starts? i think the chief criticism some have regarding mineshaft was he didn't run in the classic.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

PP's of the top older males from 2003:

http://test.drf.com/eclipse/2003/pps/om.pdf


Perfect Drift was a complete and utter badass that year. His dopey trainer kept running him on turf and talking about how he was going to enter him in the Melbourne Cup.

I remember before Perfect Drift made his 5-year-old debut and all the hanging problems started - he was based at the CD training center. Before his first start that season, Wismer told me he thought something was amiss with him. He gallops horses that he trains and was on the track with him a lot of mornings. He told me not to bet Perfect Drift in his comeback race and said he thought he might miss the board - I basically laughed at him and mocked him for thinking that.

Looks like Mineshaft deserved the HOY..

but Congaree was most likely the best race horse of the group

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Congaree was a truly outstanding horse. He and Medaglia D' Oro were open lengths the best in the Breeders Cup Classic - basically dueling each other all the way for 10 furlongs before Plesantly Perfect came along to mop them both up in the final strides.

Mineshaft ran 7 times with lasix - and ran all 7 figures in the 114-to-118 range. Hard to fault him for what he faced - he started in five Grade 1's - and horses like Western Pride, Hold That Tiger, Volponi, and Olmodavor all could run a lot on their good day .. but no way as classy and consistant as horses like MDO and Congaree - or as brilliant as a Candy Ride.

His one loss with lasix was an extremely high quality loss. He was caught like five wide on both turns - and gave 8lbs away to Perfect Drift and just got nipped after Robbie Al made a pre-mature move.

His running style was perfect - very similar to Cigar's and Curlin's. Mineshaft was always going to run in that 114-to-118 Beyer range no matter the competiton. Would Curlin rate a better horse? I think so .. but when you discount Curlin's 3yo form I don't think that's the case at all. All of that classy stock he gets - and who was Neil Howard 2nd best horse of the decade?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Yes, cause this is the most gramatically offensive of all posts on here. Sorry.

I was not poking fun at your grammar.

I was commenting on how difficult it is to read a big block of text that isn't broken up with proper line spacing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I was not poking fun at your grammar.

I was commenting on how difficult it is to read a big block of text that isn't broken up with proper line spacing.

Again, I apologize.

As I said earlier, I find no fault in the schedule Mineshaft had. It was the type of schedule a HOY is supposed to have and they couldn't control who came to face them. They certainly didn't duck anyone and I agree, there was no other horse that put up a strong enough record to make anyone say "that horse should be HOY" over him. Each of the others had their flaws. My point was more about how I feel that voters and fans get caught up in looking at the names of races and the grades of them and don't really look beneath the surface. There are people out there that voted Zenyatta this time because she had more grade one wins than Blame.

I also feel that horses need to stop being penalized so heavily for losses, especially to other good horses. It's not fair to Skip Away and Formal Gold that they took on each other several times and were both good enough to beat the other while Favorite Trick didn't have to take on anything close to them but won all of his starts so he got HOY. I've always felt that it was better to judge a horse by how good he was in his best wins rather than looking at his losses, especially if the losses came in obvious prep races.

To me, the problem is that they've gotten too far away from looking at the quality of the competition and just going by the names of the races..

By the way, if I was a voter, I'd have voted for Candy Ride as the HOY that season. I've been very clear in my opinion that as long as the rules are the way they are and one race is good enough to earn horses championships in other divisions, it's good enough to win them in all divisions. I have also stated that I don't believe that the one race has to be in the BC. In 2003, the single most impressive race I saw was the Pacific Classic. Considering how good Medaglia d'Oro was and to see Candy Ride treat him like a claimer sold me. Throw in a stakes record on the grass while beating a grade one winner on it and there was no doubt in my mind that Candy Ride was the best horse I saw that year. He didn't have the greatest resume but I thought his talent advantage overcame any record disadvantage.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Again, I apologize.

As I said earlier, I find no fault in the schedule Mineshaft had. It was the type of schedule a HOY is supposed to have and they couldn't control who came to face them. They certainly didn't duck anyone and I agree, there was no other horse that put up a strong enough record to make anyone say "that horse should be HOY" over him. Each of the others had their flaws. My point was more about how I feel that voters and fans get caught up in looking at the names of races and the grades of them and don't really look beneath the surface. There are people out there that voted Zenyatta this time because she had more grade one wins than Blame.

I also feel that horses need to stop being penalized so heavily for losses, especially to other good horses. It's not fair to Skip Away and Formal Gold that they took on each other several times and were both good enough to beat the other while Favorite Trick didn't have to take on anything close to them but won all of his starts so he got HOY. I've always felt that it was better to judge a horse by how good he was in his best wins rather than looking at his losses, especially if the losses came in obvious prep races.

To me, the problem is that they've gotten too far away from looking at the quality of the competition and just going by the names of the races..

By the way, if I was a voter, I'd have voted for Candy Ride as the HOY that season. I've been very clear in my opinion that as long as the rules are the way they are and one race is good enough to earn horses championships in other divisions, it's good enough to win them in all divisions. I have also stated that I don't believe that the one race has to be in the BC. In 2003, the single most impressive race I saw was the Pacific Classic. Considering how good Medaglia d'Oro was and to see Candy Ride treat him like a claimer sold me. Throw in a stakes record on the grass while beating a grade one winner on it and there was no doubt in my mind that Candy Ride was the best horse I saw that year. He didn't have the greatest resume but I thought his talent advantage overcame any record disadvantage.

Candy Ride towered over those horses.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Candy Ride towered over those horses.

Hes a beast in the Horse Race Fantasy game. Any surface, any distance. Monster.