Uncle Mo diagnosis

[Riot]

Devil May Care had a hepatitis caused by lymphosaroma, and Uncle Mo has a cholangiohepatitis secondary to intestinal infection. Two very different things, these horses had very different presentations reported, the only commonality with both was/is "the liver" was involved.

There are a hundred things that can cause inflammation in the liver ("hepatitis"). It's a description of an organ system condition, not a disease.

BTW, a "steroid hepatopathy" secondary to exogenous steroid use doesn't really present like either of the above two things, and is easy to diagnose, even if the owner was lying to you about giving steroids.

[TouchOfGrey]

Uncle Mo to Begin Light Training Next Week

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Devil May Care had a hepatitis caused by lymphosaroma, and Uncle Mo has a cholangiohepatitis secondary to intestinal infection. Two very different things, these horses had very different presentations reported, the only commonality with both was/is "the liver" was involved.

You're using hindsight with respect to Devil May Care. She wasn't diagnosed with lymposarcoma until just prior to being euthanized.

What was so "very different" about the abnormalities displayed between the two horses?

Both were off-feed, losing weight, and performing poorly.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Riot

Devil May Care had a hepatitis caused by lymphosaroma.

Wasn't it the other way around? At least, that's what was reported.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You're using hindsight with respect to Devil May Care. She wasn't diagnosed with lymposarcoma until just prior to being euthanized.

What was so "very different" about the abnormalities displayed between the two horses?

"Off-feed, losing weight, and performing poorly" can presage hundreds of medical problems, from pneumonia to a tooth abcess.

DMC had a different liver enzyme profile, and didn't respond well to treatment from day one. That's often pathognomonic for lymphosarcoma, which yes, can be difficult to diagnose even with biopsy/imaging until very late in the disease course, especially when the animal is put on glucocorticoids to help treat the presenting clinical symptoms (as that dampens down many markers of the clinical presentation of lymphosarcoma, and extends life)

UM responded well from day one, with a different blood profile, and a small relapse with a subacute cholangiohepatis isn't an uncommon sequela to a GI tract infection.

The different hepatic conditions present clearly differently upon a good diagnostic workup: liver/lymph biopsy, diagnostic imaging (ultrasound), bloodwork, response to different treatments, etc.

What was relayed publicly about both horses was entirely consistent with the subsequent individual conditions announced, and inconsistent with much of the casual speculation.

That's my opinion. Others may feel free to continue to mock it.

Good luck to Uncle Mo, I hope he gets back to racing. Training for breeding season doesn't start until December.

[my miss storm cat]

Uncle Mo to Begin Light Training Next Week

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...eek?source=rss

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You're using hindsight with respect to Devil May Care. She wasn't diagnosed with lymposarcoma until just prior to being euthanized.

What was so "very different" about the abnormalities displayed between the two horses?

Both were off-feed, losing weight, and performing poorly.

Please refrain from making believe you understand this stuff..Dr Riot is a Vet not some internet nobody who makes bad calls about horses..lol

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Riot

"Off-feed, losing weight, and performing poorly" can presage hundreds of medical problems, from pneumonia to a tooth abcess.

DMC had a different liver enzyme profile, and didn't respond well to treatment from day one. That's often pathognomonic for lymphosarcoma, which yes, can be difficult to diagnose even with biopsy/imaging until very late in the disease course, especially when the animal is put on glucocorticoids to help treat the presenting clinical symptoms (as that dampens down many markers of the clinical presentation of lymphosarcoma, and extends life)

UM responded well from day one, with a different blood profile, and a small relapse with a subacute cholangiohepatis isn't an uncommon sequela to a GI tract infection.

The different hepatic conditions present clearly differently upon a good diagnostic workup: liver/lymph biopsy, diagnostic imaging (ultrasound), bloodwork, response to different treatments, etc.

What was relayed publicly about both horses was entirely consistent with the subsequent individual conditions announced, and inconsistent with much of the casual speculation.

That's my opinion. Others may feel free to continue to mock it.

Good luck to Uncle Mo, I hope he gets back to racing. Training for breeding season doesn't start until December.

Unfortunately you are making your case based on information which you assume is accurate and not engineered I have no reason to believe anything about any of the horses is indeed factual

[Riot]

From today: an additional (different than posted above already) BloodHorse blog, additional pictures, and video of Uncle Mo at Winstar Farm.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/tripl...t-winstar.aspx

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

From today: an additional (different than posted above already) BloodHorse blog, additional pictures, and video of Uncle Mo at Winstar Farm.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/tripl...t-winstar.aspx

looks pretty happy, and "dapples" too.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Riot

From today: an additional (different than posted above already) BloodHorse blog, additional pictures, and video of Uncle Mo at Winstar Farm.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/tripl...t-winstar.aspx

Was that meant to strengthen or weaken your case?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Was that meant to strengthen or weaken your case?

My opinion was given yesterday, and I'll leave it to stand on it's own merits.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Riot

My opinion was given yesterday, and I'll leave it to stand on it's own merits.

Then why are you trying to back it up?

[Mawhip]

What strikes me as very strange is that they said Uncle Mo is off all medications. Maybe Dr. Riot, whom I'm very impressed by her insight and intelligence, can explain why a horse with Cholangiohepatitis would not be on some protocol that included antibiotics, more specifically Trental, and vitamin E for a very extended period of time. This innocent comment made by the Winstar folks leads me to believe the whole story is a bunch of bullshit.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

DMC had a different liver enzyme profile, and didn't respond well to treatment from day one. That's often pathognomonic for lymphosarcoma, which yes, can be difficult to diagnose even with biopsy/imaging until very late in the disease course, especially when the animal is put on glucocorticoids to help treat the presenting clinical symptoms (as that dampens down many markers of the clinical presentation of lymphosarcoma, and extends life)

UM responded well from day one, with a different blood profile, and a small relapse with a subacute cholangiohepatis isn't an uncommon sequela to a GI tract infection.

The different hepatic conditions present clearly differently upon a good diagnostic workup: liver/lymph biopsy, diagnostic imaging (ultrasound), bloodwork, response to different treatments, etc.

What was relayed publicly about both horses was entirely consistent with the subsequent individual conditions announced, and inconsistent with much of the casual speculation.

So you do have access to the bloodwork on both horses. I presumed that you were merely going off the same DRF and Blood-Horse reports that everyone else was. As no real specific details were given in those related to the diagnostic work, you can see how, superficially, both cases seemed to progress in near parallel fashion (not that Uncle Mo's is over just yet).

Having personally reviewed the pertinent information collected from all the workup done, you no doubt are in a better position to distinguish between the two horses' respective illnesses.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Mawhip

What strikes me as very strange is that they said Uncle Mo is off all medications. Maybe Dr. Riot, whom I'm very impressed by her insight and intelligence, can explain why a horse with Cholangiohepatitis would not be on some protocol that included antibiotics, more specifically Trental, and vitamin E for a very extended period of time. This innocent comment made by the Winstar folks leads me to believe the whole story is a bunch of bullshit.

You could call Dr. Byars and question him directly about his medical treatment decisions.

I would speculate, based upon the usual treatment of equine cholangiohepatitis secondary to gastrointestinal infection, that:

Was on antibiotics. Done and finished.

You are mistaken. Trental is not an antibiotic. Why should a horse be on pentoxifylline for arterial vascular concerns when he's been getting regular hyperbaric oxygen treatments?

While Vitamin E is a potent anti-inflammatory and useful in animals with gall bladders that release bile acids in response to big meals involving fat with a bolus release of bile acids, horses physiology is different (no gall bladder), and all fats will be restricted to some extent to help prevent future inflammation of the bile ducts.

JMHO.

[Riot]

Wow. How dare I offer an opinion on this subject, huh? Especially one that differs from the popular conspiracy theories? Especially one that turns out the next day to be, so far, 100% accurate?

For those that missed it yesterday, here is my opinion again. And yes, I'll let my statements stand on their own merits.

Those of you who think differently, instead of attacking me, might try being brave and stating your own opinions, and letting your own opinions of the horse stand up to public scrutiny over time, too. Be brave, go for it <g>

Riot said:
I'm sure Uncle Mo is just fine. I'm sure they made the diagnosis some weeks ago, just delayed the announcement to the public. I'd say he's been treated, he's already responded well, he's gained back the 67 lbs, bloodwork shows it's under control, he's in light work, etc.

It's always possible to have a recrudescence, or an abscess, etc. in the future, but I wouldn't actively worry about it.

Riot said:
Well, yeah, when people have posted here that they fear for the horses life (no reason to), and they fear he'll never return to the track (no reason to), and that it's weird of two cases in one barn (not at all weird, btw), and I'm a veterinarian who knows what was published and knows a little more yet about it, yeah, I'm sure.

Because unlike every other person on this thread, I'm not blindly guessing about something I really don't know a thing about.

Damn sorry I added my professional opinion based upon my experience and my local contacts in the veterinary community.

[Dahoss]

"Be impeccable with your word. Speak with integrity."

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

"Be impeccable with your word. Speak with integrity."

Yup. I do.

You? You do anything more than join threads to poke at other posters? The troll act is very old.

Are you sure about this, Riot? Supposedly Breitbart agrees with your diagnosis.