Why Lukas went downhill

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by LOSE=GLUE

Look Going Wild is still running here is the PP

Track Date Race Class Distance Condition Jockey FP
Turfway 09/09/06 9 STAKES [3U] All Weather Track, 1M wf Mojica, O 6
Saratoga 08/25/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 7F wf Hill, C 5
Saratoga 07/30/06 3 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $75,000 Dirt, 6F wf Bejarano, R 2
Churchill 07/09/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 6 1/2F wf Lanerie, C 3
Churchill 06/25/06 5 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F sf Lanerie, C 5
Churchill 06/14/06 8 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Dirt, 1M wf Leparoux, J 6
Churchill 05/18/06 6 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING [3U] $80,000 Turf, 5F ft Jacinto, J 5
Turfway 09/17/05 13 Kentucky Cup Sprint S. (Grade 3) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast McKee J 3
Saratoga 08/07/05 9 Amsterdam S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 6 Furlongs Fast Velasquez C H 7
Belmont Park 06/11/05 8 Riva Ridge Breeders' Cup S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 7 Furlongs Fast Bailey J D 6
Pimlico 05/21/05 12 Preakness S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 3/16 Miles Fast Albarado R 14
Churchill 05/07/05 10 Kentucky Derby (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/4 Miles Fast Valdivia, Jr. J 18
Keeneland 04/23/05 9 Coolmore Lexington S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Sloppy Stevens G L 5
Aqueduct 04/09/05 9 Wood Memorial S. (Grade 1) Stakes [3] 1 1/8 Miles Fast Espinoza V 7
Santa Anita 03/05/05 5 Santa Catalina S. (Grade 2) Stakes [3] 1 1/16 Miles Fast Bejarano R 2

Going Wild is a perfect example of a horse that Lukas kept running after he was hurt. If he would have stopped on the horse right after the Lexington and given the horse six months off, the horse might have come back fine. Instead, he kept running the horse until the horse was so messed up that no amount of time off would help. It's a shame. That horse actually had a lot of talent.

By the way, Wayne does have some good qualities. He is an incredibly hard worker and he is very driven. He's a real workaholic. To be a successful trainer, it takes a lot more than just being good at training. You have to have good help. You have to have good vets and you have to know how to properly utilize your vets. You have to have good people skills to attract owners. You have to be a good self-promoter and things like that. Wayne is very presentable and make sa great first impression on people. He is impeccably dressed and well-spoken. He's a bright guy. That's hal the battle. It helps to be a good business man. Wayne had all these qualities. Not only that, but the guys is just a winner. He almost reminds me a litle of Donald Trump in a way. He comes across as a guy who does everything first-class. His barn is absolutely immaculate. He always had the nicest and cleanest barn on the backstretch. He would probably be better than practically anyone at teaching a class on "the business of training".

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Never said there was anything wrong with a GED, I just thought maybe you had it mixed up. Please provide an example of me clowning on handicapped people, because I sure can't find it. You seems to be stirring the pot, I clowned on you, because with most of your posts you seem to be begging for someone to do it. Your name alone begs for an argument. On a horse racing board the name Lose=Glue is sort of low class, don't you think?

LOL!!!
Da Hoss here is one good lesson for you to learn. Never argue with someone so stupid as to spell insight, insite.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I know, I know. I guess I was bored during the game last night. I just don't like the dude, and his stupid posts.

I could never be bored enough to talk with him.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Pure HOGWASH. Less than 5% of horses turned out EVER come back to the ability they had before they left the track. That goes for cheap claimers right up to Triple Crown winners.

This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.
The bashers sure see something i don't see and I will cite two glaring reasons why.
1) Many breeders I know will not go to a new sire they feel was trained by a "juice guy". There are several trainers who have trained a lotta good horses and have yet to have trained a really good sire.
D Wayne has trained many great or good sires. Dynaformer, Carson City, Capote, Cat Thief, Gulch, Grand Slam, Honour and Glory, Jump Start, Is It True, Yes Its True, Mt Livermore, Orientate, Slew City Slew, Salt Lake, Thunder Gulch, etc.
If they were all moved up so much by his "mystery methods" why do they still produce in the shed unlike many other name trainers horses?
2) The guy obviously has been a tremendous teacher of horseman. Todd Pletcher, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshaw, Bobby Barnett, Dallas Stewart, Mike Maker, Kiarin McLaughlin, all learned under him. What are the chances that he doesnt know horsemanship with a roster of pupils like that?

Guys trained so many champions and grade one winners its too long a list to name. Hes also 71 years old. I think I'll cut him some slack.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.
The bashers sure see something i don't see and I will cite two glaring reasons why.
1) Many breeders I know will not go to a new sire they feel was trained by a "juice guy". There are several trainers who have trained a lotta good horses and have yet to have trained a really good sire.
D Wayne has trained many great or good sires. Dynaformer, Carson City, Capote, Cat Thief, Gulch, Grand Slam, Honour and Glory, Jump Start, Is It True, Yes Its True, Mt Livermore, Orientate, Slew City Slew, Salt Lake, Thunder Gulch, etc.
If they were all moved up so much by his "mystery methods" why do they still produce in the shed unlike many other name trainers horses?
2) The guy obviously has been a tremendous teacher of horseman. Todd Pletcher, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshaw, Bobby Barnett, Dallas Stewart, Mike Maker, Kiarin McLaughlin, all learned under him. What are the chances that he doesnt know horsemanship with a roster of pupils like that?

Guys trained so many champions and grade one winners its too long a list to name. Hes also 71 years old. I think I'll cut him some slack.

I'm not saying a horse will come back better than ever if they had a serious injury. I'm saying that they will often times come back better than ever if you turn them out before a problem gets serious.

If you look at many of the good trainers, their win percentage is just as high with a horse coming off a 6 month layoff as with a horse that just ran a month ago. I don't have Pletcher's stats in front of me for horses coming back from a 6 months to a 1 year layoff, but I know his win percenatge for horses that haven't run for somewhere between 45 days and 6 months is 26%.

If you think that Lukas taught any of those guys how to trainn, you are crazy. He only hired guys that were great horsemen.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not saying a horse will come back better than ever if they had a serious injury. I'm saying that they will often times come back better than ever if you turn them out before a problem gets serious.

If you look at many of the good trainers, their win percentage is just as high with a horse coming off a 6 month layoff as with a horse that just ran a month ago. I don't have Pletcher's stats in front of me for horses coming back from a 6 months to a 1 year layoff, but I know his win percenatge for horses that haven't run for somewhere between 45 days and 6 months is 26%.

If you think that Lukas taught any of those guys how to trainn, you are crazy. He only hired guys that were great horsemen.

Oh come on now Rup, thats an anti Lukas bias showing.
Those guys sure feel like he taught them something. They all use the white bridle as a tribute to their old boss, and none of them bash him.
I just don't buy that they were already good enough to go on their own and simply became paid slaves because they wanted the challenge.

[Rupert Pupkin]

[quote=oracle80]This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.

Take a guy like James Jerkens. His normal win percentage is 17%. His win percenatge for horses coming off 45-180 day layoffs is 23%. I guess you guys are right. You shouldn't give a horse time off if they have a slight problem. The time off won't do any good.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not saying a horse will come back better than ever if they had a serious injury. I'm saying that they will often times come back better than ever if you turn them out before a problem gets serious.

If you look at many of the good trainers, their win percentage is just as high with a horse coming off a 6 month layoff as with a horse that just ran a month ago. I don't have Pletcher's stats in front of me for horses coming back from a 6 months to a 1 year layoff, but I know his win percenatge for horses that haven't run for somewhere between 45 days and 6 months is 26%.

If you think that Lukas taught any of those guys how to trainn, you are crazy. He only hired guys that were great horsemen.

Flower Alley must have overslept during that barn meeting and never read the memo.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Oh come on now Rup, thats an anti Lukas bias showing.
Those guys sure feel like he taught them something. They all use the white bridle as a tribute to their old boss, and none of them bash him.
I just don't buy that they were already good enough to go on their own and simply became paid slaves because they wanted the challenge.

None of those guys train anything like Lukas. If he was so good, you would think they would have a similar style. When they interviewed McLauglin about his days with Lukas, the only thing he said with regards to what he learned from Lukas was that "He teaches you how to get owners and stuff like that."

[quote=Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

This is true. Heck even horses who have small chips removed rarely if ever come back to what they were before the chip.
Tendons? Well maybe if you give em 2-3 years they can be ok. Fractures? Well sometimes it works with the screws but most of the time it doesn't.
I still find it hysterical that the guy won yet another championship last year and that at his age people hold him up to scrutiny as if he were a spring chicken.

Take a guy like James Jerkens. His normal win percentage is 17%. His win percenatge for horses coming off 45-180 day layoffs is 23%. I guess you guys are right. You shouldn't give a horse time off if they have a slight problem. The time off won't do any good.

I never said that Rupert. Obviously horses need time off when they have a minor problem so it doesn't become major, and obviously D Wayne could have done a better job with giving horses time off. I think thats obvious.
Noone is disputing that. But you name a trainer and I can name weaknesses that he or she has, just like you are with D Wayne.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Flower Alley must have overslept during that barn meeting and never read the memo.

Who knows what they did to FA to get that big effort out of him in the BC Classic. He had just gotten beat by 15 lengths. If you have a horse with an injury and inject them to get one more race out of them, there is a good chance that they will not come back 100%. That is always the risk if you try to get one or two moe races out of a horse that is showing the beginning of a minor injury.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Who knows what they did to FA to get that big effort out of him in the BC Classic. He had just gotten beat by 15 lengths. If you have a horse with an injury and inject them to get one more race out of them, there is a good chance that they will not come back 100%. That is always the risk if you try to get one or two moe races out of a horse that is showing the beginning of a minor injury.

He only got beat by 15 lengths prior to the BC because of Pletcher's poor use of a rabbit & Chantel Sutherland.

[Rupert Pupkin]

[quote=oracle80]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I never said that Rupert. Obviously horses need time off when they have a minor problem so it doesn't become major, and obviously D Wayne could have done a better job with giving horses time off. I think thats obvious.
Noone is disputing that. But you name a trainer and I can name weaknesses that he or she has, just like you are with D Wayne.

To call it a weakness is the understatement of the year. He won't turn a horse out unless they are so lame that they can hardly walk. He breaks down so many horses that many of the big insurance companies will not insure his horses. I think that says it all. In addition, his win percenatage is 9%. If you think he's a good trainer, you can recommend that some of your owners give their next horse to him.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

He only got beat by 15 lengths prior to the BC because of Pletcher's poor use of a rabbit & Chantel Sutherland.

Oh that must have been why he lost by 15 lengths. Otherwise he would have been right there. LOL.

I have no real opinion on this topic, although I think Lukas' record proves he's going to be remembered as one of the top trainers of all time... In the end, people are defined by what they've accomplished, not how well they were liked.

But I will say, I was the date of a guy who was invited to Satish's daughter's wedding. It was held at Padua and it was beautiful. But the date, a very high-end re-insurance owner, said that Satish wasnt well liked in the business world for a multiple of reasons I wont divulge.

Whether this has any bearing on the current topic, its not my place to say as it is second-hand, but there was direct corrilations between the two.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I know, imagine, a downhill trainer that trained a champion last year. Who'd a thunk it.

My memory must be failing me. Lukas trained a champion last year? Are you referring to Azeri? I didn't think she won any Eclipse award last year. She certainly shouldn't have.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Balletto

I have no real opinion on this topic, although I think Lukas' record proves he's going to be remembered as one of the top trainers of all time... In the end, people are defined by what they've accomplished, not how well they were liked.

But I will say, I was the date of a guy who was invited to Satish's daughter's wedding. It was held at Padua and it was beautiful. But the date, a very high-end re-insurance owner, said that Satish wasnt well liked in the business world for a multiple of reasons I wont divulge.

Whether this has any bearing on the current topic, its not my place to say as it is second-hand, but there was direct corrilations between the two.

You are right that in the history books Lukas will be remebered as one of the all-time greats. Some people may think that is all that matters. I don't know. I will tell you that he doesn't have the respect of his peers. They all think he's a terrible trainer and they all laugh at him. Some people may think that it's just sour grapes. That's not the case because you don't hear them saying that any other top trainers are terrible trainers.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by JJP

My memory must be failing me. Lukas trained a champion last year? Are you referring to Azeri? I didn't think she won any Eclipse award last year. She certainly shouldn't have.

He's talking about Folklore.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by JJP

My memory must be failing me. Lukas trained a champion last year? Are you referring to Azeri? I didn't think she won any Eclipse award last year. She certainly shouldn't have.

Didn't Folklore win the Filly Juvie Champ last year?

[Linny]

I was in Lukas' barn this summer and he had about 30 horses. He still has some for Mrs. Lewis including Simon Pure who won a race at SAR.
Those who know nothing of someone's business dealings should not profess knowledge they don't have.

I looked over every horse in the barn and saw many of them train and or race. They hardly looked abused.

DWL changed the business. He has proven to be the greatest "trainer of trainers" the game has ever seen. Pletcher, McLaughlin, Hennig, Maker and others have gone on to success. Those guys didn't get to where they are by watching a moron.

BTW, Going Wild looked great at SAR. He was second to Silver Wagon in a prep for the Forego. They skipped the Forego for an allowance and ran into Discreet Cat. He never had a "serious injury" just some of the same nagging issues that plague most race horses. He's a racehorse for crissakes. On the other thread folks are bemoainign how infrequently horses race and here Wayne's bashed for RACING his RACE HORSES!