BC Mile - George Washington

Originally Posted by Gander

Oracle, I wasnt arguing that what BTW was saying and what your saying is indeed true. I used that logic to crush a horse this summer at Saratoga who payed $19 to get me out from under a $6,000 hole.

But lets be realistic. Everybody saw Rock of G's trip and there was no possible bet back opportunity for him. So if you lost on him that day, which I did (needed him for a pick 3) it would be hard to think you could recapture that money next time out at 3/5 in Europe.

Randall is right, any horse can lose. To call any horse a cinch is just a lie.

Noone is arguing that. I think thats a given. But to try and use ROG's loss as "proof" that he wasn't an incredible horse is nonsense.

Originally Posted by The Bid

Euro horses as a whole are superior animals to what we have over here. On grass its not even close, we arent in the same league. Why would GW not come over here and trounce a field in the mile?

that's so incorrect! lol hell, a lot of the best horses over there were bred over here!!

[Gander]

But to try and use ROG's loss as "proof" that he wasn't an incredible horse is nonsense.

I dont remember ever doing that. I was in agreement with Randall and ROG's loss only goes to prove an absolute obvious point that we all can attest to: Any horse can lose. I'm sure the 3 of us combined have lost out on many scores in our lives with horses who faltered at very short odds who looked invinceable on paper.

Originally Posted by Danzig2

that's so incorrect! lol hell, a lot of the best horses over there were bred over here!!

Like I said Zieg if they are so superior then why don't they ever win the Derby over here? Because they don't want to? heck, they have basically given up trying, thats how hard it is to do.
They have a style of racing that just allows them to gallop, gallop, gallop up to a race.
They also don't really ever have to work on gate skills of a horse(which I think is pretty obvious watching the way most of them break when they come here for the BC). Over there they can just fall out of the gate and lope along early.
Its not so easy when you have to teach a horse to break fast and show speed, sometimes blazing speed, and still have the stamina to finish a 9f or 10f race.
The whole notion of how superior they are is incredible. The fact is I would expect an entire continent of trainers to produce grass horses who would beat ours more often than not because thats what they do all year long, they train and race horses for grass races. Thats what they race on over there, so thats what they focus on.

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Euro horses as a whole are superior animals to what we have over here. On grass its not even close, we arent in the same league. Why would GW not come over here and trounce a field in the mile?

I'm inclined to agree...just like the golfers. He says, tongue firmly in cheek!

thing is, the perception is there that the horses overseas are better...than you hear things like what they said at the arlington million this year, that euros have won 1/3 of the millions. that leaves us with the other 2/3's. but if you asked anyone casually to guess the ratio. i bet they'd think it was skewed far more towards the euros.
there's also the fact that we don't ship over there...but why would anyone go there??? plenty of top notch racing here, with purses to match. we aren't afraid to ship, horses go to japan and dubai every year. but the $ is there.

hawk wing was a tremendous horse--gave the single best performance in europe that year--he's a ky bred. so was nebraska tornado. sadler's wells, every year at the top of the sires list--he's by northern dancer. so many bloodlines over there are similar to here, with northern dancer everywhere....look at the race geo washington won the other day, the QEll...top three finishers were all by danzig stallions.

Originally Posted by Hwjb

I'm inclined to agree...just like the golfers. He says, tongue firmly in cheek!

lol harry!!!

george may be the best on paper....but we all know he's a huge question mark as far as temperment.

besides, if rock of gibraltar can lose, anyone can!
that was the only race i missed on the espn pick six that day....and i don't think domedriver ever won again either.

Originally Posted by Gander

But to try and use ROG's loss as "proof" that he wasn't an incredible horse is nonsense.

I dont remember ever doing that. I was in agreement with Randall and ROG's loss only goes to prove an absolute obvious point that we all can attest to: Any horse can lose. I'm sure the 3 of us combined have lost out on many scores in our lives with horses who faltered at very short odds who looked invinceable on paper.

Tim one of my most basic rules on Cup Day is never to single a Euro no matter how good they supposedly are.
I've seen too many of them berak 5 lengths behind the field, and I could write a book about the complete abortions of rides I've witnessed from their "fine jockeys". I mean Dettori is supposed to be the big star and to anyone who wants to tell me all about him, I only need refer them to the ride he gave Swain in the BCC back in 1998. That may have been one of the most tragic rides in history. Or that idiot who rode Antonius Pius, he should have had his liscense to ride in the US revoked on the spot. The worst was that guy Murtaugh who cost Lans and I about 400 grand last year(we woulda had 3 5 outta 6's on cup day) who rode Whipper. You just have to see this tragic incompetent piece of garbage's ride on Whipper last year in the mile.
The little chart they put on the side of the pp's said "traffic turn, checked 1/8th" but that basically only tells about 5% of the story. He also quit riding the horse on the turn for no apparent reason that I or anyone else could ever fathom. He got beat about 2 1/4 lengths.
Hell Dancing Brave got beat by Manila and he was supposed to be the greatest horse over there since Nijinsky.
I won't ever single a Euro, I don't care who they are. You do that and most of the time you end up cursing out a Euro jock for weeks in your sleep.

[SundayStar]

george washington is/should be the horse to beat. but he's no cinch. not by a mile . the mile looks to be bery much wide open. i think there will be at least 10 horses with an honest shot to win it. it's always a race that has major traffic issues which can spoil any horse's chances. this field will be loaded with talent and should be a blast to watch.

[The Bid]

I would single G dub without hesitation. That being said I understand where Oracle is coming from, I have witnessed the poor rides, its just different over here. Infact they would probably do much better if they put someone familiar with the tracks on the animal. As far as the horses and racing goes in Europe, its just pure over there. The animals are more genuine, the horsemanship is more genuine, its still the sport of kings in Europe. Here its the sport of syndicates, welching owners, broke trainers, and cheaters, but I love it

By the way Gander when you get in a stretch duel with a Euro horse ridden by a Euro jockey, you can go to the window and get on line to beat the rush before they even hit the 1/16th pole. Our jockeys are athletes, their jockeys are riders.
Remember Giants Causeway and Kinane trying to get by Sakhee and Mccarron? Yeah, ok. How about Tiznow and Mccarron vs Sakhee and Dettori? Oh you think you are going by Frankie? I think not.
My very favorite was Pat Eddery and Trempolino storming past Pat Day and Theatrical in 1987. Day simply shook the reins and then went to a hard whip and surged right back past him leaving a stunned Eddery wondering how the hell he lost the race.
Their jockeys have about 10% the athleticism that our jockeys do.

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Tim one of my most basic rules on Cup Day is never to single a Euro no matter how good they supposedly are.
I've seen too many of them berak 5 lengths behind the field, and I could write a book about the complete abortions of rides I've witnessed from their "fine jockeys". I mean Dettori is supposed to be the big star and to anyone who wants to tell me all about him, I only need refer them to the ride he gave Swain in the BCC back in 1998. That may have been one of the most tragic rides in history. Or that idiot who rode Antonius Pius, he should have had his liscense to ride in the US revoked on the spot. The worst was that guy Murtaugh who cost Lans and I about 400 grand last year(we woulda had 3 5 outta 6's on cup day) who rode Whipper. You just have to see this tragic incompetent piece of garbage's ride on Whipper last year in the mile.
The little chart they put on the side of the pp's said "traffic turn, checked 1/8th" but that basically only tells about 5% of the story. He also quit riding the horse on the turn for no apparent reason that I or anyone else could ever fathom. He got beat about 2 1/4 lengths.
Hell Dancing Brave got beat by Manila and he was supposed to be the greatest horse over there since Nijinsky.
I won't ever single a Euro, I don't care who they are. You do that and most of the time you end up cursing out a Euro jock for weeks in your sleep.

I take the point that there have been poor European rides, you should have added Kinane on Giant's Causeway, but I think you're overly harsh and overlook the good rides, more often than not when their strength has been discernibly more effective than their more rhythmic US couterparts. Fallon on Islington vs Prado on L'Ancresse always sticks in my mind. But also Murtagh on Kalanisi. Even Lester on Royal Academy.
As for Spencer, he had a pretty rough season at Coolmore, but has got better since, but it would be incredibly tough to judge any jockey based on a ride on that huge dog Antonius Pius.

Gander do you remember that call from Durkin on the Trempolino/Theatrical race? BUT THEATRICALS GAME!!! AND HE'S COMING RIGHT BACK!!!!!!
That was a classic call.

[zippyneedsawin]

[quote=oracle80]that idiot who rode Antonius Pius, he should have had his liscense to ride in the US revoked on the spot. QUOTE]


I think Jamie Spencer was on Antonio Pius... he's also the same jock that was on Powerscourt in the 2004 Arlington Million (the one he won but was DQ'd)

[brockguy]

Harry, Spencer still rides so many howlers though...

[blackthroatedwind]

Let's not leave out Kieran Fallon's ride on Borgia in the initial F&M BC Turf....that was an all-timer.

Who was the guy on Indian Skimmer? I think Jim Carrey played him in the movie.

Originally Posted by Hwjb

I take the point that there have been poor European rides, you should have added Kinane on Giant's Causeway, but I think you're overly harsh and overlook the good rides, more often than not when their strength has been discernibly more effective than their more rhythmic US couterparts. Fallon on Islington vs Prado on L'Ancresse always sticks in my mind. But also Murtagh on Kalanisi. Even Lester on Royal Academy.
As for Spencer, he had a pretty rough season at Coolmore, but has got better since, but it would be incredibly tough to judge any jockey based on a ride on that huge dog Antonius Pius.

Yeah, well you can keep Spencer and that clown Murtaugh, thanks anyway.
Harry? Have you ever watched Murtaugh's ride on Whipper last year? Could you honestly try and explain to me what exactly you think was going through his head? Because quite frankly I don't think I will ever understand it.

[The Bid]

The Powerscourt ride was worse than the Antonio Pius ride. They were both brutal though

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Let's not leave out Kieran Fallon's ride on Borgia in the initial F&M BC Turf....that was an all-timer.

Who was the guy on Indian Skimmer? I think Jim Carrey played him in the movie.

Oh I forgot Indian Skimmer. He should have been arrested.

Originally Posted by The Bid

The Powerscourt ride was worse than the Antonio Pius ride. They were both brutal though

I disagree that powerscourt's ride was worse. In that case he just made one extremely stupid mistake. Granted it was one of the dumbest mistakes ever made.
But the Pius ride was a masterpiece of incompetence. A true tapestry of horrors. He basically managed to weave every possible mistake a jockey can make into one, one mile race. It was quite a feat.
Please watch the Mutaugh ride on Whipper last year, if anyone can truly give me any type of explanation as to what his goals and aims possibly were, I'd love to hear it. truly. My best possible explanation is that a rival jock slipped LSD into his gatorade before the race. There is no way anyone could be that horrendous on just sheer incompetence. Little kids at a pony riding academy could have given much better rides.