Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I mean why the venom at Todd then? What exactly has he done wrong here?
A guy called him up and said we are making a trainer switch on the horse, will you take him? Only a fool wouldn't. If he had said no, they woulda called another guy. Someone was gonna get him, may as well have been him.

I think the general venom (not all but most ) is directed toward the owners...of course they probably made the right business decision for the horse and of course todd would be a fool to turn the horse down...but business or not, it's a sh*tty human being that pulls a horse with ten minutes notice JMO.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

That one sucks too, because didn't Gary get the call while at lunch with Jason Orman?

You've voiced your opinion about how people can trounce on you in the business too. (stallion seasons) Sure it was the owner's right and sure it is business, but it still sucks.

I think his inability to get the horse to quit being rank certainly didn't help matters any.
Like I said, I think Holthus happens to be a great trainer, every year he develops something very nicely, and he doesnt get all bluebloods.
But you really can't blame a guy who spent a lotta dough on a horse for trying a change.
I think there is a perspective problem here, and allow me to point out that Holthus made the former owner a fortune and won a lotta races, but for the new guy, hes made 3 starts, and had one win, in the illustrious St Louis Derby.
What he did with the horse before Stonewall bought him really doesn't matter to them.
I think if he wins his last race, they never make the switch, never. But he lost with the rankness again, and if I had kicked up that kind of dough for a horse, I can see where I might be a tad upset when he blows a big purse by being rank again. Its not irrational to make a move they feel is in their best interests. And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think his inability to get the horse to quit being rank certainly didn't help matters any.
Like I said, I think Holthus happens to be a great trainer, every year he develops something very nicely, and he doesnt get all bluebloods.
But you really can't blame a guy who spent a lotta dough on a horse for trying a change.
I think there is a perspective problem here, and allow me to point out that Holthus made the former owner a fortune and won a lotta races, but for the new guy, hes made 3 starts, and had one win, in the illustrious St Louis Derby.
What he did with the horse before Stonewall bought him really doesn't matter to them.
I think if he wins his last race, they never make the switch, never. But he lost with the rankness again, and if I had kicked up that kind of dough for a horse, I can see where I might be a tad upset when he blows a big purse by being rank again. Its not irrational to make a move they feel is in their best interests. And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I mean why the venom at Todd then? What exactly has he done wrong here?
A guy called him up and said we are making a trainer switch on the horse, will you take him? Only a fool wouldn't. If he had said no, they woulda called another guy. Someone was gonna get him, may as well have been him.

I didn't mean to say that Pletcher hustled the horse or any horse but he is seemingly the only trainer in the business that gets horses like this handed to him on a silver platter. Henny Hughes was sold and as such was moved(though its hard to get teary-eyed for Biancone based upon the depth in his barn) from one mega trainer to another with a little sidetrip to dubai included. Stop defending Pletcher like your his lawyer for a minute ( no pun intended) to see that its discouraging from a standpoint from the other 99% of the business that doesn't have horses with him or sell them to him.
Do you really think that there aren't any other trainers that might have a shot with doing well with a horse such as this?
Pletcher/Dutrow have decreased the quality of racing in NY simply by dominating all the pertinent divisions to the extent where the majority of NY owners get NY breds and dont even try to compete. I dont blame the guy for taking the horse but you dont have to feel good about it.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I didn't mean to say that Pletcher hustled the horse or any horse but he is seemingly the only trainer in the business that gets horses like this handed to him on a silver platter. Henny Hughes was sold and as such was moved(though its hard to get teary-eyed for Biancone based upon the depth in his barn) from one mega trainer to another with a little sidetrip to dubai included. Stop defending Pletcher like your his lawyer for a minute ( no pun intended) to see that its discouraging from a standpoint from the other 99% of the business that doesn't have horses with him or sell them to him.
Do you really think that there aren't any other trainers that might have a shot with doing well with a horse such as this?
Pletcher/Dutrow have decreased the quality of racing in NY simply by dominating all the pertinent divisions to the extent where the majority of NY owners get NY breds and dont even try to compete. I dont blame the guy for taking the horse but you dont have to feel good about it.

Cannon Shell that was pretty stupid. I'm not trying to be Pletcher's lawyer, and I suggest you enroll in some reading comprehension classes so you can see my point.
Do I think its a "feel good" story? No, its most definitely not. Todd doesnt need another good horse, very true.
But all you bleeding hearts really miss the point. The guy who overpaid(seemingly, at least for now) is stuck his nuts on the deal. So he wanted to try and get out from under by switching to the leading trainer in America.
Is this really such a horrible thing?
How can you feel sorrier for a guy who made a pocketful of money on the horse(Holthus) then the guy whose out a brinks truck on him.
I don't see Pletcher as a factor in this story at all, and he certainly doesn't need to be defended here by me or anyone else.

[blackthroatedwind]

Pletcher IS a factor in this story if for no other reason than the one Cannon Shell just pointed out....he simply controls too many horses in each condition ( along with Dutrow to a lesser extent ) in NY and thus makes it that much harder to fill the races. There is really no arguing this.

Now, NOBODY is blaming Todd, or saying it's his fault per se, but the situation is what it is, and it is not good for the game overall. No, this one situation, were it isolated would be about other things ( like loyalty ), but in the big picture this situation is a BIG problem...and it only seems to be getting worse.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

That may not have been an option for the owners. Holthus could have refused to replace McKee.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Cannon Shell that was pretty stupid. I'm not trying to be Pletcher's lawyer, and I suggest you enroll in some reading comprehension classes so you can see my point.
Do I think its a "feel good" story? No, its most definitely not. Todd doesnt need another good horse, very true.
But all you bleeding hearts really miss the point. The guy who overpaid(seemingly, at least for now) is stuck his nuts on the deal. So he wanted to try and get out from under by switching to the leading trainer in America.
Is this really such a horrible thing?
How can you feel sorrier for a guy who made a pocketful of money on the horse(Holthus) then the guy whose out a brinks truck on him.
I don't see Pletcher as a factor in this story at all, and he certainly doesn't need to be defended here by me or anyone else.

No need to get so defensive. I understand your point and I understand that its a business, I understand that he made a lot of money with the horse, I understand that Pletcher is the leading trainer in the country.
The fact that the guy has bought questionable stallion prospect for way more than market value actually makes no difference. The whole point that I am trying to bring up is that when the same few barns get all the good babies and take the established stars too, it makes for an unhealthy sport.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Pletcher IS a factor in this story if for no other reason than the one Cannon Shell just pointed out....he simply controls too many horses in each condition ( along with Dutrow to a lesser extent ) in NY and thus makes it that much harder to fill the races. There is really no arguing this.

Now, NOBODY is blaming Todd, or saying it's his fault per se, but the situation is what it is, and it is not good for the game overall. No, this one situation, were it isolated would be about other things ( like loyalty ), but in the big picture this situation is a BIG problem...and it only seems to be getting worse.

Ok I understand that part, I really do. I'm not arguing it either.
But I really see this I guess from the owner's point of view. Everyone knew he overpaid for the horse back in the spring. I heard different numbers being thrown around and even if it was the lowest one I heard its still a disaster thus far.
The guys who pay the bills and support the game really don't need to be villified for trying to do something to recoup their investment.
Lets face it, we have a good trainer drought right now. I can't recall a time when so few guys have had so many good horses between them.
I don't know what the answer is. But its not really the concern of the owners, they have to go where they fell they have the best chance to recoup an investment.
It worked out rather nicely when the RHT people did it and went to Mandella. Hes standing for a fortune right now.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No need to get so defensive. I understand your point and I understand that its a business, I understand that he made a lot of money with the horse, I understand that Pletcher is the leading trainer in the country.
The fact that the guy has bought questionable stallion prospect for way more than market value actually makes no difference. The whole point that I am trying to bring up is that when the same few barns get all the good babies and take the established stars too, it makes for an unhealthy sport.

Ok Cannon Shell tell you what.
You meet me back here after he runs a few times for Todd and lets see if hes still rank.
People can make all the comments and innuendo they want about Todd having some secret edge, and moving up horses. But do you wanna make a little bet that the horse isn't rank next time?
Todd is a fine horseman(as are many other trainers, hes not the only one) and I think its a disgrace that the trainer/jockey combo couldnt get this horse to settle after having had all this time to try and correct it.
Its not just "some little thing", his rankness can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd or 3rd or off the board in a lotta future races. How much do you take before you make a move to try and find a guy who can get him to relax.
You're acting like this is a shock. hes had MONTHS to try and get him to settle, he can't do it. Time to find someone who can or might.
Ok, I'm a bad guy then, I agree with the owner 100% and would do the same thing.

[Gander]

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by Gander

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

What a great way to describe it and you are dead on.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

I'll state a few obvious truths in this story.

1. Lawyer Ron was purchased for a seven figure sum.
2. The new owner has the right to do whatever he wishes with his horse.
3. Holthus has done nothing wrong.
4. Holthus has earned good money and likely a share in LR when he retires to stud.
5. Pletcher is guilty of nothing but hiring great assistants and running a tight ship.

Originally Posted by Gander

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

I'm a little surprised he wasn't considered, maybe he was.
The Strub Series that kicks off with the Malibu would make a hell of a lot of sense to me. And Mandella is out there. Dutrow has done great work as well and would have made a fine choice. Nick Zito always does great work, he woulda been a great choice as well, especially to get him to rate with his crack exercise riders Carlos and Maxine Correa. A lotta guys mighta been considered. I realize what you are saying about Todd, I really do.
I know its very bad to have an imbalance, BELIEVE me it affects a lotta people in this game from the bottom to the top very badly. I'm not arguing that. Hes like Microsoft, the product is great, but competitors have no chance.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ok Cannon Shell tell you what.
You meet me back here after he runs a few times for Todd and lets see if hes still rank.
People can make all the comments and innuendo they want about Todd having some secret edge, and moving up horses. But do you wanna make a little bet that the horse isn't rank next time?
Todd is a fine horseman(as are many other trainers, hes not the only one) and I think its a disgrace that the trainer/jockey combo couldnt get this horse to settle after having had all this time to try and correct it.
Its not just "some little thing", his rankness can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd or 3rd or off the board in a lotta future races. How much do you take before you make a move to try and find a guy who can get him to relax.
You're acting like this is a shock. hes had MONTHS to try and get him to settle, he can't do it. Time to find someone who can or might.
Ok, I'm a bad guy then, I agree with the owner 100% and would do the same thing.

I not sure why you went off on a tangent but I don't particularly care if he's rank or not. I don't care about this horse and I dont care about the owner and I dont care about his stallion business. But I do care about horse racing, the sport and business. And that being so, I see many more problems being created by those that strictly see it as a "business". The concentration of power into single shedrows is a very troubling sign.

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

I'll state a few obvious truths in this story.

1. Lawyer Ron was purchased for a seven figure sum.
2. The new owner has the right to do whatever he wishes with his horse.
3. Holthus has done nothing wrong.
4. Holthus has earned good money and likely a share in LR when he retires to stud.
5. Pletcher is guilty of nothing but hiring great assistants and running a tight ship.

Agreed 5 times.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

I'll state a few obvious truths in this story.

1. Lawyer Ron was purchased for a seven figure sum.
2. The new owner has the right to do whatever he wishes with his horse.
3. Holthus has done nothing wrong.
4. Holthus has earned good money and likely a share in LR when he retires to stud.
5. Pletcher is guilty of nothing but hiring great assistants and running a tight ship.

I agree with everything but 2. We don't know that there wasn't an agreement when they purchased the horse that they would retain Holthus as trainer throughout LR's career. If there was that agreement then they'd better have a pretty darn good reason for switching trainers.

What handicap horses has he turned into champions? I can only think of Left Bank. I think he follows Bluegrass Cat and Flower Alley to stud.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I not sure why you went off on a tangent but I don't particularly care if he's rank or not. I don't care about this horse and I dont care about the owner and I dont care about his stallion business. But I do care about horse racing, the sport and business. And that being so, I see many more problems being created by those that strictly see it as a "business". The concentration of power into single shedrows is a very troubling sign.

Cannon Shell, you and I have rarely if ever before disagreed, and we really don't disagree now. I agree with everything you said about concentration of power.
But I didn't go off on a "tangent". I believe that I am more in line with the real story here, a guy who isnt happy about his horses performance.
You don't think him still being rank matters? Come on cannon. he just blew the winners share of his last race for being rank, again. Please go back and watch the replay of the Super Derby ok Cannon? You will see what I am talking about. I don't think the move was "a move to Pletcher", it was a "move from Holthus". It may be semantics, ok, but do you see what I am saying about that part of the equation?

[Gander]

Lawyer Ron is a feelgood horse. Hes the kind of horse I root for (except when I have a nice win bet on Strong Contender). I hope he does well and theres little reason to think he wont. He ran very well in the Super Derby. For a while I didnt think SC was getting him.