You are paying for it

[dylbert]

This has been an interesting early morning read. Thread begins with 'study' that most academics would consider suspect, if not outright invalid. Extrapolating findings from median values is folly.

35 years ago I was graduate student in economics at a well-known US university. My graduate assistant stipend, $175 per month, was mostly funded by two 'studies'. One study measured the impact of new navigable waterway system on rural unemployment in Mississippi & Alabama. The second one trained government workers on how to run 'Comprehensive Education & Training' programs. Both studies were funded through grants from US government.

Corps of Engineers wanted study that showed that new waterway system lowered unemployment. We delivered one. Carter Administration wanted to create new training & employment programs. We delivered training on how to startup & fund programs in rural South.

My point is give an academic a grant and you will get answer you want! Give these quasi-government think tank outfits money and they too will provide answer you want. And with today's technology, most anyone can mashup 'facts' from any number of 'studies' to support any argument or cause.

So find a study, start thread, and watch the fun begin!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

yeah but Dell you didn't get the memo that paying people a ridiculously high minimum wage is going to fix 'Merica cuz a biased study subsidized by organized labor said so.
Oh, and the federal tax subsidies will automatically stop too because if they pay out more money then they won't need to raise prices or won't need as many tax breaks which in turn will be voluntarily given back to the tax payers ...or something.....Wait... maybe it was that they would need to raise prices and spur hyper-inflation AND need more tax subsidies because they have less dollars coming in....but that's all ok, because then the minimum wage workers would get a few dollars less back on their 1040EZ which makes us all winners...or something.

I'm sorry...Removing common sense gets confusing. My apologies.

Define ridiculously high.

As has been shown, repeatedly, had minimum wage continued to track as it used to, it would be 10.50/hour right now. The same time that the minimum wage started lagging behid is when all other wages started to falter. It also coincides with pay to the top earners growing like crazy. The money the corporations are paying out started skewing. Its common sense to accept the gap between employee and exec pay? It is common sense to say they cannot afford to pay their employees when you see the amazing increases to the tip execs? I could accept that wagez had a good reason to be lower, were it not for the fact they are not lower for everyone.
The money is there, the prioritizing is not.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dylbert

This has been an interesting early morning read. Thread begins with 'study' that most academics would consider suspect, if not outright invalid. Extrapolating findings from median values is folly.

35 years ago I was graduate student in economics at a well-known US university. My graduate assistant stipend, $175 per month, was mostly funded by two 'studies'. One study measured the impact of new navigable waterway system on rural unemployment in Mississippi & Alabama. The second one trained government workers on how to run 'Comprehensive Education & Training' programs. Both studies were funded through grants from US government.

Corps of Engineers wanted study that showed that new waterway system lowered unemployment. We delivered one. Carter Administration wanted to create new training & employment programs. We delivered training on how to startup & fund programs in rural South.

My point is give an academic a grant and you will get answer you want! Give these quasi-government think tank outfits money and they too will provide answer you want. And with today's technology, most anyone can mashup 'facts' from any number of 'studies' to support any argument or cause.

So find a study, start thread, and watch the fun begin!

I suppose one can disregard the particular study.
However, the point remains that wages have stagnated for most, and have risen quite dramatically for a few.
Theres also the pesky fact that corporations are rolling in profit, while taxpayers subsidize their low pay to the very people doing the work that makes them all that money.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by dylbert

My point is give an academic a grant and you will get answer you want! Give these quasi-government think tank outfits money and they too will provide answer you want. And with today's technology, most anyone can mashup 'facts' from any number of 'studies' to support any argument or cause.

So find a study, start thread, and watch the fun begin!

The only difference is a government backed grant/study will give the answers the government wants while billing the taxpayer, while these quasi-think tanks get their money from either the Koch bros. or George Soros etc. etc. leaving the taxpayer out of it.

Of course they are used to validate views correct or not that the gullible digest without question gaining allies/voters to that particular view.

And it's amazing how they work on some people. Take for instance Michael Bloomberg's recent pledge of $50 million for the gun control movement. You'd think America is under siege, murder victims galore however when you consider in 1974 with a US population of 211.39 million we had 20,710 murders or 1/10,207 and in 2012 with a population 313.91 million we had 14,827 murders or 1/21,110 you realize it isn't so. And to the contrary the murder rate has been more than halved. Yet the Danzig's of the world use Slate, Huffington or FOX and Infowars as their bible never questioning their 'teachings'.

(US Murder Rates By Year) http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

I loathe repeating myself to someone with their fingers in their ears yelling lalala.

Or....one can just say thats all not so. But it is so

Oh you'll never know the irony of you having your fingers in your ear continuously repeating yourself.

It's libertarding and brings back memories of our village board idiot!

[dellinger63]

Just realized if US Median Income had kept up with the raises in Welfare Benefits from 1974 it would be $151,164 and minimum wage would be $24.92....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dylbert

This has been an interesting early morning read. Thread begins with 'study' that most academics would consider suspect, if not outright invalid. Extrapolating findings from median values is folly.

35 years ago I was graduate student in economics at a well-known US university. My graduate assistant stipend, $175 per month, was mostly funded by two 'studies'. One study measured the impact of new navigable waterway system on rural unemployment in Mississippi & Alabama. The second one trained government workers on how to run 'Comprehensive Education & Training' programs. Both studies were funded through grants from US government.

Corps of Engineers wanted study that showed that new waterway system lowered unemployment. We delivered one. Carter Administration wanted to create new training & employment programs. We delivered training on how to startup & fund programs in rural South.

My point is give an academic a grant and you will get answer you want! Give these quasi-government think tank outfits money and they too will provide answer you want. And with today's technology, most anyone can mashup 'facts' from any number of 'studies' to support any argument or cause.

So find a study, start thread, and watch the fun begin!

Also....what am i to take away from the 2011 cbo study that shows that since 1979, growth for the top 1% wage wise is over 275%, but for the next 60 % is about 40%? What about the finding that not only has income inequality risen in most developed coutnries, the change is greatest here?
and what am i to discern from the statistic that only 42% of americans believe that this inequality actually exists, regardless of all the findings?
In 2012, the wage gap was the largest since the 1920s...with the top 1% seeing a 20% gain, the other 99% saw a 1% increase.

What are we to do about the opportunities that once were here, and aren't any more? People say reward hard work, thats not happening. People discuss the good old days, but our economic landscape and job market isnt the same. We actually have more skilled workers.....and less jobs demanding skills.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

Also....what am i to take away from the 2011 cbo study that shows that since 1979, growth for the top 1% wage wise is over 275%, but for the next 60 % is about 40%? What about the finding that not only has income inequality risen in most developed coutnries, the change is greatest here?
and what am i to discern from the statistic that only 42% of americans believe that this inequality actually exists, regardless of all the findings?
In 2012, the wage gap was the largest since the 1920s...with the top 1% seeing a 20% gain, the other 99% saw a 1% increase..

Celebrate the fact the study you quote is dated, conveniently ending with 2007 stats, though published in 2011 and per the same CBO curiously from 2007-2009 the trend was quite different. Then again we must ask who initiated the 2011 study that stopped with 2007 stats?

Average before-tax income fell between 2007 and 2009 for households in all income quintiles, but the amount of that decline varied by quintile. The declines in before-tax income were 5 percent or less for households in each of the four lowest income quintiles and 18 percent for households in the top quintile. For households in the top one percent, income fell by 36 percent, reducing their share of before-tax income from 18.7 percent to 13.4 percent.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43373

[jms62]

The new American Dream

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101597957
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...#ixzz2zXcacB4r

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Danzig

I loathe repeating myself to someone with their fingers in their ears yelling lalala. Swift is correct about reasoning with people who dont use reason. So i gave up

Underemployment is a huge issue....there are people with a lot of education who are questioning their decision to go to college, because they cant find a job...or cant find one that pays. So they take what they can get while hunting for better.....thus, they are lazy....right? Where my husband works, less jobs, more automation, same output. Less than half the jobs they once provided..with robots doing more and more work.
Then, as prices have risen, wages have not. Again, google and see the study of a car price in the 60s vs now, and the workers ability to buy that car vs now.

Or....one can just say thats all not so. But it is so

There are a lot of people with degrees that still have no education or marketable skills. College is not for everyone.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by jms62

The new American Dream

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101597957
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...#ixzz2zXcacB4r

We call it "contract work" in both mine and the wife's fields. Lots of people are clamoring to get it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

There are a lot of people with degrees that still have no education or marketable skills. College is not for everyone.

true that not all degrees are useful. however, it isn't true that people don't have education, or that people are lazy, etc, etc.
we always told people if you work hard, you can get ahead. that's changing, and not for the better.

[Rudeboyelvis]

#1 on Amazon's best seller list


>>>...In Piketty's view, backed by centuries of data on wealth and economic growth, the typical outcome of unfettered capitalism is rising income inequality. Piketty says the world's biggest economies have to do something, like impose a global tax on capital, to stop it. As Piketty said in an interview with HuffPost Live last week, income inequality is only getting started, and this century could look a lot more like the deeply unequal 18th and 19th centuries than the more-egalitarian 20th....<<<


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5191566.html

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

#1 on Amazon's best seller list


>>>...In Piketty's view, backed by centuries of data on wealth and economic growth, the typical outcome of unfettered capitalism is rising income inequality. Piketty says the world's biggest economies have to do something, like impose a global tax on capital, to stop it. As Piketty said in an interview with HuffPost Live last week, income inequality is only getting started, and this century could look a lot more like the deeply unequal 18th and 19th centuries than the more-egalitarian 20th....<<<


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5191566.html

Oligarchy

We are becoming third world where a few in business are disgustingly wealthy and they buy the politicians to rig the rules to make themselves even more wealthy. Death Spiral if you ask me.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by jms62

Oligarchy

We are becoming third world where a few in business are disgustingly wealthy and they buy the politicians to rig the rules to make themselves even more wealthy. Death Spiral if you ask me.

Exactly...And nothing new - from the 2012 Mitt Romney thread where Joey promised us how much better things would be with a Republitard in charge:

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

A Corporate Oligarchy is a form of power, governmental or operational, where such power effectively rests with a small, elite group of inside individuals, sometimes from a small group of educational institutions, or influential economic entities or devices, such as banks, commercial entities, lobbyists that act in complicity with, or at the whim of the oligarchy, often with little or no regard for constitutionally protected prerogative.

Monopolies are sometimes granted to state-controlled entities, such as the Royal Charter granted to the East India Company, or privileged bargaining rights to unions (labor monopolies) with very partisan political interests.

This is what we are living in.

Only when we all collectively dismiss the bullsi.t spewed from the corporate-controlled (RE: State Run) media and reclaim our nation, can we try that whole "Constitutionally Federated Republic" thing again.

but if you think you're getting there with Romney or Obama, I'd say you're in for a disappointment.

[Danzig]

another take on the minimum wage, from a point of view i'd never considered-how it would level the playing field a bit between small business owners and large corporations.

http://www.slate.com/articles/busine...er_living.html


hubby and i talked about this more than once over the weekend...the walmartization of our economy, with the big fish gulping up the small.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

#1 on Amazon's best seller list


>>>...In Piketty's view, backed by centuries of data on wealth and economic growth, the typical outcome of unfettered capitalism is rising income inequality. Piketty says the world's biggest economies have to do something, like impose a global tax on capital, to stop it. As Piketty said in an interview with HuffPost Live last week, income inequality is only getting started, and this century could look a lot more like the deeply unequal 18th and 19th centuries than the more-egalitarian 20th....<<<


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5191566.html

i'm reading the slate article about the book now. need to get it along with my penman book i'm ordering. piketty was one i saw referenced in my thursday posts on this thread. wasn't able to copy/paste because i was on my new phone, and i haven't figured out all that crap yet!


'A 2013 study by Thomas Piketty, Emmanuel Saez et al., notes that the rise in the share of total annual income received by the top 1%, which has more than doubled since 1976, has had a significant effect on overall income inequality. It states: "It is tempting to dismiss the study of this group as a passing political fad due to the slogans of the Occupy movement or as the academic equivalent of reality TV. But the magnitudes are truly substantial."[46] Also in 2013, the Economic Policy Institute noted that even though corporate profits are at historic highs, the wage and benefit growth of the vast majority has stagnated. The fruits of overall growth have accrued disproportionately to the top 1%'.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by jms62

Oligarchy

We are becoming third world where a few in business are disgustingly wealthy and they buy the politicians to rig the rules to make themselves even more wealthy. Death Spiral if you ask me.

Hey Chicken Little,

The other side.

We consider 'poor' for a single person at $11,670 or under and that comes out to $40/day.

Give me some stats on how close we're becoming a third world country, or even close to one.

P.S. the sky isn't falling!

As demonstrated earlier if only minimum wage and US median income had kept up with increases to welfare since 40 years ago we'd be at $24/hr. plus minimum wage and $150K plus US median income.

Then again we are the most generous country on earth despite the inability of 25% of our citizens being unable to graduate from high-school.

Take another bow America you deserve it!

[jms62]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Hey Chicken Little,

The other side.

We consider 'poor' for a single person at $11,670 or under and that comes out to $40/day.

Give me some stats on how close we're becoming a third world country, or even close to one.

P.S. the sky isn't falling!

As demonstrated earlier if only minimum wage and US median income had kept up with increases to welfare since 40 years ago we'd be at $24/hr. plus minimum wage and $150K plus US median income.

Then again we are the most generous country on earth despite the inability of 25% of our citizens being unable to graduate from high-school.

Take another bow America you deserve it!

Truly amazing. Again my point goes flying over your head. rudeboy had no problems grasping it. Always debating an issue that no one is talking about.

http://gofrontrow.com/en/reading-com...FU4aOgodmCAAtg

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by jms62

Truly amazing. Again my point goes flying over your head. rudeboy had no problems grasping it. Always debating an issue that no one is talking about.

Your point has no factual basis other than rude and some author trying to push a book. Kind of like the guy who says bet the grays.

Again show me a third world country's poverty threshold stats, any third world country and show me how close we are.

Which was your point, no?