25 trainers urge Lasix-ban; THA says issue debated, decided

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Danzig

So smart claims are exclusive to people who "we" deem to be highly skilled professionals, that the peanut gallery is of the opinion are "clean". So people like Michele Nevin aren't capable of making successful claims that the "clean" trainers are privy to because we assume they are cheating.. #Gotcha.. Now its crystal clear, depending on your name we judge skill vs. chemicals. Proof is not necessary just the pronunciation of your last name in determining judgement.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

So smart claims are exclusive to people who "we" deem to be highly skilled professionals, that the peanut gallery is of the opinion are "clean". So people like Michele Nevin aren't capable of making successful claims that the "clean" trainers are privy to because we assume they are cheating.. #Gotcha.. Now its crystal clear, depending on your name we judge skill vs. chemicals. Proof is not necessary just the pronunciation of your last name in determining judgement.

what?

until or unless someone is found to be dirty, i will have to think they're clean. consistently getting caught with violations-well, how would anyone trust they're clean?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You have a lot of highly skilled trainer at every track. As in any other walk of life success does not make you a good or a bad person, it just makes you successful at your trade, nothing more nothing less.

There are plenty of "highly skilled" trainers whose skills seem to come and go.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There are plenty of "highly skilled" trainers whose skills seem to come and go.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There are plenty of "highly skilled" trainers whose skills seem to come and go.

The brilliant Jimmy Jerkins is on fire after a prolonged absence from the top, same with Matz etc. Cyclical sport like many others.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Danzig

what?

until or unless someone is found to be dirty, i will have to think they're clean. consistently getting caught with violations-well, how would anyone trust they're clean?

Michele Nevin has violations?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Michele Nevin has violations?

i have no idea, nor have i ever called her a juicer.
i can count on one hand the trainers i've mentioned on here that are many times over rule breakers. she's not one of them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

The brilliant Jimmy Jerkins is on fire after a prolonged absence from the top, same with Matz etc. Cyclical sport like many others.

Matz is 15% on the year. He wins 15% almost every year.
Jerkens is averaging 3 wins a month.

Is this really "on fire"?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Matz is 15% on the year. He wins 15% almost every year.
Jerkens is averaging 3 wins a month.

Is this really "on fire"?

11 James A. Jerkens 26 9 1 2 $490,324 35% 12 46%

Belmont

SPA plus another winner today not included

8 James A. Jerkens 12 4 0 2

last 39 starters 14 win 1 second and 4 thirds thats A LOT better then the previous 52 weeks

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Matz is 15% on the year. He wins 15% almost every year.
Jerkens is averaging 3 wins a month.

Is this really "on fire"?

Matz;s last 45 days have been very hot as well

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

11 James A. Jerkens 26 9 1 2 $490,324 35% 12 46%

Belmont

SPA plus another winner today not included

8 James A. Jerkens 12 4 0 2

last 39 starters 14 win 1 second and 4 thirds thats A LOT better then the previous 52 weeks

What exactly does this prove?
Todays winner was a Sky mesa NYB that was 3/5 Morning line in a 6 horse field
Yesterdays winner was More than Ready NYB 1st timer in a race where the ML fav was coming off of a 43 beyer.
VE day is a late blooming 3yo
Wicked Strong is a proven good horse.

A really good trainer winning with these types of horses that he has trained their entire careers rarely raises any suspicion for obvious reasons.

I'm not sure what your point is outside of pushing the Dutrow agenda. Yeah we get it, he is a good horseman, he didnt break a lot of horses down, etc, etc. Did he deserve the extreme penalty that he received? Probably not but lets not act like he was some saint.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Matz;s last 45 days have been very hot as well

SSS

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Harness horses run 3-4 times a month on lasix, with no hydration issues. Different breeds but in terms of hydration and mineral loss, physiologically the same.

I went googling for sources to back this up (not that I doubted you; I just spent too many years working at a science organization) and came across this op-ed piece. It's about trotters, but looks at very similar arguments TB fans make, including the argument that it weakens the breed:

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolu...7932&zoneid=29

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What exactly does this prove?
Todays winner was a Sky mesa NYB that was 3/5 Morning line in a 6 horse field
Yesterdays winner was More than Ready NYB 1st timer in a race where the ML fav was coming off of a 43 beyer.
VE day is a late blooming 3yo
Wicked Strong is a proven good horse.

A really good trainer winning with these types of horses that he has trained their entire careers rarely raises any suspicion for obvious reasons.

I'm not sure what your point is outside of pushing the Dutrow agenda. Yeah we get it, he is a good horseman, he didnt break a lot of horses down, etc, etc. Did he deserve the extreme penalty that he received? Probably not but lets not act like he was some saint.

Look nobody has to convince me that Jerkins is a WORLD CLASS trainer but if you are going to be objective you have to say the last 60 odd days has been very good.

You have people here that suggest that Nevin is cheating because her paramour is banned from the sport for 10 years and is the poster boy for cheats when we all know thats ridiculous. IF people are going to call a trainer with no violations a cheat just because she is romantically involved with a former trainer who is banned then they might as well scrutinize trainers like Matz and Jerkins who have had very indifferent 18 month stretch and now as you seem to think are spotting their stock in more advantage spots. It's amazing to me that if your last name is "XYZ" you are immuned for a raised eyebrow.

BTW have you seen a Jerkins lose second time out recently I think they are 9 or 10 for their last 12 or 13.. NOT BAD

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I went googling for sources to back this up (not that I doubted you; I just spent too many years working at a science organization) and came across this op-ed piece. It's about trotters, but looks at very similar arguments TB fans make, including the argument that it weakens the breed:

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolu...7932&zoneid=29

Im often embarrassed for the sport when people claim that the breed was been "weakened" by the use of a diuretic. It wasnt weakened by indiscriminate steroid use, or stallions being bred to 500% more mares a year or the physical manipulation of foals via surgeries, or a bloodstock expansion that once had 80000 foals on the ground ever year during the 80's, or the rise of statebred programs based upon generally inferior stock. Nope, just lasix.

Whether lasix is banned or not the thing that bothers me the most is that the aggressive campaign by the anti-lasix people has led to far, far too much unnecessary bad PR for the sport. People have short memories but this issue had been put to bed over 20 years ago. There was no betting public issue. There was (and still is) plenty of foreign buyers at our sales. The elimination of lasix doesnt figure to add one extra dollar to the handle or an extra person to the stands (unless they buy a NYRA season pass in which they are counted as being there regardless of where they actually are).

The moral or ethical dilemma of treating horses on raceday with lasix seems to confuse some into believing that there will be some economical gain by stopping it. Maybe if we were all still in 3rd grade and the world was a black and white place I could understand people thinking this way.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Look nobody has to convince me that Jerkins is a WORLD CLASS trainer but if you are going to be objective you have to say the last 60 odd days has been very good.

You have people here that suggest that Nevin is cheating because her paramour is banned from the sport for 10 years and is the poster boy for cheats when we all know thats ridiculous. IF people are going to call a trainer with no violations a cheat just because she is romantically involved with a former trainer who is banned then they might as well scrutinize trainers like Matz and Jerkins who have had very indifferent 18 month stretch and now as you seem to think are spotting their stock in more advantage spots. It's amazing to me that if your last name is "XYZ" you are immuned for a raised eyebrow.

BTW have you seen a Jerkins lose second time out recently I think they are 9 or 10 for their last 12 or 13.. NOT BAD

We all understand the concept of guilt by association. Is it fair? No but human nature is what it is and people in horseracing are far more cynical than the general public.

Using Jerkens or Matz is silly because they have different operations mostly training for breeders, training horses from the start and not claiming.

I said before it is funny how people determine who is a good guy and who is a bad guy based upon some unknown criteria.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Im often embarrassed for the sport when people claim that the breed was been "weakened" by the use of a diuretic. It wasnt weakened by indiscriminate steroid use, or stallions being bred to 500% more mares a year or the physical manipulation of foals via surgeries, or a bloodstock expansion that once had 80000 foals on the ground ever year during the 80's, or the rise of statebred programs based upon generally inferior stock. Nope, just lasix.

Whether lasix is banned or not the thing that bothers me the most is that the aggressive campaign by the anti-lasix people has led to far, far too much unnecessary bad PR for the sport. People have short memories but this issue had been put to bed over 20 years ago. There was no betting public issue. There was (and still is) plenty of foreign buyers at our sales. The elimination of lasix doesnt figure to add one extra dollar to the handle or an extra person to the stands (unless they buy a NYRA season pass in which they are counted as being there regardless of where they actually are).

The moral or ethical dilemma of treating horses on raceday with lasix seems to confuse some into believing that there will be some economical gain by stopping it. Maybe if we were all still in 3rd grade and the world was a black and white place I could understand people thinking this way.

People like easy one-size-fits-all solutions. And the media also prefers them because they make for 800 word columns. Complex is boring and hard and takes too long to explain.

I was intrigued that the op-ed said that Europeans don't usually scope their horses if there's no visible sign of bleeding so Americans and Europeans are really working with two totally different sets of data when it comes to reported incidences of EIPH.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We all understand the concept of guilt by association. Is it fair? No but human nature is what it is and people in horseracing are far more cynical than the general public.

Using Jerkens or Matz is silly because they have different operations mostly training for breeders, training horses from the start and not claiming.

I said before it is funny how people determine who is a good guy and who is a bad guy based upon some unknown criteria.

oh, so nevins is dutrows girlfriend....

well, now, she may be pure as the driven snow. but of course that's going to cause some brow raising. how could it not?

[Siena 16]

Indicating trainers were coerced to signing a letter on the Lasix issue because of a stance their owners are taking is selling trainers short as individuals and professionals in the horse industry. These blanket statements contributes to the negative perception of our sport

[Kasept]

Except that they were coerced.. in some cases having their livelihood threatened.