The Classic

Originally Posted by 1st_Saturday_in_May

Yeah, the whole time I had it written down $10 straight Dini/Invasor but at the last second - @ the OTB window - I canged it to a $5 box. Made up a lot for my losses in the Mile, Turf, Distaff, & Sprint

Good enough...Congrats on the savor.

Ez

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by MLC

What you say makes sense. I was not a Bernardini fan, but I do respect his ability more after today's race. What I think put me off was the belief by alot of his fans that he would perform the same way he had in Saratoga and put away this field with little effort and in under 2 minutes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some people here felt that he would put in a 1:58 or 1:59 race when he was challenged.

Mark me down as one that thought he would win with the same minimal effort he used before. I guess I was caught up in the hype. I do think though that in his JCGC, he could have shaded 2:00 if asked. I mentioned a 1:58 and change in another post but the way I said it was that I don't think he's a 1:58 type of horse and that I thought he was already at his peak as a horse and that if he could have gone 1:59 and change in the JCGC, that was the best he could do.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Just want to say one thing here. All of u that are saying it was the step up in competition that got him beat need to stop. Really. It wasn't like half of the field beat him. He got beaten by ONE horse. And the one horse that beat him was an older horse that had won the Pimlico Special, Suburban, and Whitney. It wasn't like this was a fluke win. This was a horse that figured to have a big chance, even though I personally discounted him. So, again, to say that facing better HORSES is what was his downfall is just wrong. At best, it was facing a better HORSE. One horse.

It's incredibly narrow minded to me that Bernardini could lose a race to this caliber of horse and all the naysayers feel justified in saying that they knew all along that he wasn't worthy of all the hype and that they knew he wasn't an all time great. But then those same people that are so quick to dismiss Bernardini from the all-time great horse list will include Secretariat and Spectacular Bid even though they lost some races to some pretty ordinary and non-descript horses themselves. Why does losing to Invasor knock Bernardini out of the conversation but Secretariat is forgiven for losing to Angle Light, Onion, and Prove Out? Why is losing to Invasor seen as proof that Bernardini is not a superhorse but when Bid loses to Coastal, it's ok? Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying any of this to say that Bernardini is in the class of those two horses. What I am saying is that losing a race like this, to a horse like Invasor shouldn't be looked at as proof that he's not. This reminds me of the late 1970's. In 1978, superhorse 3yo Affirmed was beaten in the Marlboro Cup buy the champion older male Seattle Slew. In 1979, superhorse 3yo Spectacular Bid was beaten by the champion older male Affirmed. No disgrace in either situation. None here for Bernardini either. When really good horses face other really good horses, they both can't win. Who's to say that next time they were to face each other Bernardini wouldn't win? Sometimes horses don't care for a particular surface (Easy Goer and Skip Away at Churchill for instance) and it's actually a show of even more courage than thought just to run as well as they did. Bernardini looked to be in deep trouble going into the turn but still found enough to finish second. In the best dirt race in the world. I think that if he was anything but a superhorse, he wouldn't have been anywhere around at the finish. What I am saying is that whether u thought he was a superhorse or not going into the race, this one result shouldn't be used as justification either way.

You still don't get it. Its not only the competition from Invasor that was tougher, it was the rest of the field as well that contributed to Bernardini having a tougher time. You measure how great horses are when they race with adversity, not when they face small weak fields that they can dominate at will. If we still should consider Bernardini a super horse as you contend, what should we call Invasor?

BTW, didn't you make some bold claim this week that Invasor was in way over his head and that you were so sure about it that if he hit the top four you would stay off the board for a week? Not only did he break the top four but Bernardini (your lock of the day) was staggering as Invasor walked past him.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Mark me down as one that thought he would win with the same minimal effort he used before. I guess I was caught up in the hype. I do think though that in his JCGC, he could have shaded 2:00 if asked. I mentioned a 1:58 and change in another post but the way I said it was that I don't think he's a 1:58 type of horse and that I thought he was already at his peak as a horse and that if he could have gone 1:59 and change in the JCGC, that was the best he could do.

I swear I thought I read somewhere where you actually said that you expected Bernardini to break the track record today. Am I wrong?
That is an example of the hype getting way out of hand.

[kgar311]

I hear everybody saying bring him back next year. For what? So the best horse in the world can sit in the back seat and play second fiddle to this horse so more. Discreet Cat would of won by open lengths here.

Originally Posted by kgar311

I hear everybody saying bring him back next year. For what? So the best horse in the world can sit in the back seat and play second fiddle to this horse so more. Discreet Cat would of won by open lengths here.

OOps. Here we go again with another horse. Discreet Cat beat Invasor when? Do horses change? I hope we see Bernardini again.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by pgardn

OOps. Here we go again with another horse. Discreet Cat beat Invasor when? Do horses change? I hope we see Bernardini again.

That makes no sense at all Do horses change?????????

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

You still don't get it. Its not only the competition from Invasor that was tougher, it was the rest of the field as well that contributed to Bernardini having a tougher time. You measure how great horses are when they race with adversity, not when they face small weak fields that they can dominate at will. If we still should consider Bernardini a super horse as you contend, what should we call Invasor?

BTW, didn't you make some bold claim this week that Invasor was in way over his head and that you were so sure about it that if he hit the top four you would stay off the board for a week? Not only did he break the top four but Bernardini (your lock of the day) was staggering as Invasor walked past him.

U miss the part in the post where I admitted that I discounted Invasor. And in case u need to see it again, I started another thread where I admit again that I was WAY WRONG on Invasor.

To answer your first question of what should we call Invasor? Well maybe we should be calling him a superhorse too. He's only lost one race and u don't find many that have seasons like he did this year. I was saying to some others that, while he may not be as good as Ghostzapper was, his HOY campaign, at least he should be, was more impressive than Ghostzapper's was. GZ ran in a weak sprint and in a low class race in Jersey before his two big races. Invasor ran in the best we have to offer. Sure, his competition sucked all year until today but when u run in the very best races, your competition can't be held against u. So, yeah, maybe we should be calling him a superhorse. Is it impossible to have more than one superhorse running at a time? I don't think so.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by pgardn

OOps. Here we go again with another horse. Discreet Cat beat Invasor when? Do horses change? I hope we see Bernardini again.

Yes, horses do change. But from what I've seen, Discreet Cat has also changed.

Originally Posted by kgar311

That makes no sense at all Do horses change?????????

Did Lava Man become a better racehorse if you look at his career?
Do 3 year olds mature and learn with some tough races under their belt?

Bernardini did get challenged by a very tough pace. He did not find himself close to the lead with minimal effort. He made a move on the turn, maybe a little early and flat out got run down. How come he got run down? Has not happened before?

My feelings are the button was pushed too early given the crowd in front moving well and with confidence. And it was too much for him. A dash of bravado moving that early. He still ran a great race. I know this horse can beat Invasor. Lets see some more of him.

[MLC]

What should we call Invasor? A really good horse. Probably the best running at this time this year. But just as Bernardini did not deserve the title of superhorse, neither does Invasor.

[MLC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

That makes no sense at all Do horses change?????????

Of course they change.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Yes, horses do change. But from what I've seen, Discreet Cat has also changed.

So lets get em all together. Nah. They might beat one another. Brother Derek was impressive. Some tweeking and we got another very tough animal that can win on the lead. 1 1/4 is too much though.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Mark me down as one that thought he would win with the same minimal effort he used before. I guess I was caught up in the hype. I do think though that in his JCGC, he could have shaded 2:00 if asked. I mentioned a 1:58 and change in another post but the way I said it was that I don't think he's a 1:58 type of horse and that I thought he was already at his peak as a horse and that if he could have gone 1:59 and change in the JCGC, that was the best he could do.

Hey man, it is just tough to judge ability based on whoever you think a horse is running with.. In all honesty, I didn't know what to think of Bernie....so, I just sat the race out. One horse didn't beat him...a good field did..

Ez

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

Hey man, it is just tough to judge ability based on whoever you think a horse is running with.. In all honesty, I didn't know what to think of Bernie....so, I just sat the race out. One horse didn't beat him...a good field did..

Ez

I guess we'll just disagree then because I only thought one horse beat him. I thought a good field challenged him and maybe softened him up a bit but only one horse was able to beat him.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I guess we'll just disagree then because I only thought one horse beat him. I thought a good field challenged him and maybe softened him up a bit but only one horse was able to beat him.

We agree...but that's racing.. Last time I checked...anybody who ran second..was beat by one horse. Right?

Ez

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

Hey man, it is just tough to judge ability based on whoever you think a horse is running with.. In all honesty, I didn't know what to think of Bernie....so, I just sat the race out. One horse didn't beat him...a good field did..

Ez

If anything Invasor had the rougher trip. He bobbled at the start when "the ground appeared to break from beneath him", was 3 wide then 5 wide then 7 wide off the turn.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If anything Invasor had the rougher trip. He bobbled at the start when "the ground appeared to break from beneath him", was 3 wide then 5 wide then 7 wide off the turn.

Hey man...we are both on the same side of the street. The best horse won today..

Ez

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If anything Invasor had the rougher trip. He bobbled at the start when "the ground appeared to break from beneath him", was 3 wide then 5 wide then 7 wide off the turn.

No doubt he had a tougher trip than Bernardini. Starting with the post position and ending with what looked like an impossibly wide sweep on the turn.

ARl Jim.

I think it might be a case of us being a little older and having heard so many called Locks and the greatest ever. And then you got some people (Cunningham) that looks at how a horse is bred and if they run really well like Berni, well then its all over. But there is that little extra problem of being able to respond to tough trips... and just not giving in; That puts the really special ones over the top even in a loss.

I think Berni could have won this race. I really think he got pushed too early after viewing the replay again. And that is how a jock and horse figure out how to win races. By a tough loss... If they are really special.